Freedom of religion...Or not.

seveneleven · Post by **seveneleven** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:28 am

Well IMO i think you shoulda named the Thread around politics in general...But still religon has in a scense gotton way outta hand...

Blaze · Post by **Blaze** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:47 am

seveneleven wrote:Well IMO i think you shoulda named the Thread around politics in general...But still religon has in a scense gotton way outta hand...

Yes, in a sense it has. It's no lie the United States Government advocates a Christian, specifically Catholic, ideal in their choices and actions. Bush is Evangelical, his advisors have Christian tones to their advice. In short, the US is governed based off a religion.

Any time the two cross paths, there is trouble. The Country was founded on the ideal of freedom from Religious Persecution. How ever, society clearly feeds the people that if you aren't part of one of the 'acceptable' religions, you are terrible and are going to hell. Spanish Inquisition? Salem Witch Trials?

Hey hold up, who were the one's that were being persecuted throughout history. No, not the Jews, yes they have gotten screwed, but Ironically Christians have had it just as much if not more. Sure the Holocaust over rides years of persuing Christians, but irony abounds when the persecuted becomes the persuer.

My 3.14159265 cents worth.

classic candy · Post by **classic candy** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:05 am

When the Pledge of Allegiance says "Under God" it's not exactly saying "Jesus" or "Our Lord God in Heaven"... so it's technically not refering to Christianity in general. I don't have a problem with saying the Pledge, but being forced to say it is a no-no. In school it's obviously implied to be "Our Lord God in Heaven" so it bothers me. I'm not Christian.. I'm not anything.. And I'm definitely not atheist either. I don't believe.. and I don't believe in not believing. But forcing kids who obviously believe otherwise, to say the Pledge, when it's implied that the God they're speaking about is the Christian God, is just wrong. I also feel the same way about the "In God We Trust".. A lot of people have a strong religious background.. regardless of what religion. I know a few weeks ago, they were trying to make the one muslim girl at our school remove her head wrap (I have no clue what this thing is called anymore), because it was a hat. Obviously, they lost, because everybody is free to practice their own religion.

Also, in the Ten Commandments, it says "Thou Shall Worship No God Before Me", God is obviously implying that he's not the only God. So, it's okay to have other religous beliefs. He's saying, if you want to follow my religion, you shall worship no one before me, but if you want to follow other religions.. okay. What's funny, is that the right-wingers would have people believe that Christianity is the only religion that's supposed to exist, since God has made himself known. Just my two cents.

seveneleven · Post by **seveneleven** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:13 am

Well i understand where your comin from, theres one quote from a movie i remember hearing i think it was called "The Usual Suspects"

But the quote was "...I dont belive in God but i fearhim...." and that really got me thinking that there might be a higher power but still a lack of proof...
Scientests have stated there a places in time that they even theoretically cant assoiate with anything....theres spaces in the bible also that some scientests associated with things in history that could possibly have happened but theres no way to know for sure...

Mosh_Mosh_Revolution · Post by **Mosh_Mosh_Revolution** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:49 am

I agree with Soma to a huge extent. Teaching religion to a child is a terrible thing to do. In my opinion, anyway.

I was raised in a very (very) strict Christian family. The only reason I've ever missed church (even up to this day) is when I have to work, and even then my parents take it upon themselves to bitch at me. When I was eleven years old, I was baptized into Christ while attending a week at church camp.

I look back and cringe. Every camp, every convention... You feel touched while you're there, but when it all boils down, you go up front because you feel nothing more than that it's the right thing to do, or that you feel dirty and want the people around you to know that you're coming clean.

Professed religion is a dangerous thing, especially in children, because they are, as stated, so very impressionable. When I went forward to be baptized, all I could say in response to "Why do you want to give your life to Jesus?" was "Because I know it's the right thing to do," or "I know it'll make my mom and dad happy." This memory is very clear in my head, because I've thought about it a lot. I remember the councellor getting a slightly disappointed look on his face, unable to settle with my reasoning, before he led me on so we could call my parents and tell them that I was getting baptized the next day.

I can't help but wonder how many others have experienced this same thing, and have questioned the reasons for their faith as much as I have.

sam · Post by **sam** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 12:06 pm

i was brought up roman cathloic until i was about 3 when my parents divorced. they both decided that i could find religion on my own at that point. my dad bought those terrible bible stories and wondered why i never read them and usually ended up scribbling out letters to make funny words

malictus · Post by **malictus** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:10 pm

Mosh_Mosh_Revolution wrote:I agree with Soma to a huge extent. Teaching religion to a child is a terrible thing to do. In my opinion, anyway.

I was raised in a very (very) strict Christian family. The only reason I've ever missed church (even up to this day) is when I have to work, and even then my parents take it upon themselves to bitch at me. When I was eleven years old, I was baptized into Christ while attending a week at church camp.

I look back and cringe. Every camp, every convention... You feel touched while you're there, but when it all boils down, you go up front because you feel nothing more than that it's the right thing to do, or that you feel dirty and want the people around you to know that you're coming clean.

Professed religion is a dangerous thing, especially in children, because they are, as stated, so very impressionable. When I went forward to be baptized, all I could say in response to "Why do you want to give your life to Jesus?" was "Because I know it's the right thing to do," or "I know it'll make my mom and dad happy." This memory is very clear in my head, because I've thought about it a lot. I remember the councellor getting a slightly disappointed look on his face, unable to settle with my reasoning, before he led me on so we could call my parents and tell them that I was getting baptized the next day.

I can't help but wonder how many others have experienced this same thing, and have questioned the reasons for their faith as much as I have.

Mosh_Mosh, I can assure you that you're not the only one who has gone through that kind of thing. I, like you, was baptized at about the same age, and I can remember how hollow it all felt, how much I felt like I was just going through the motions. I struggled with it for years and years, not fully rejecting the church until I was about 18 (growing up in the rural south didn't help). I have been non-religious ever since, and I've never looked back.

Mosh_Mosh_Revolution · Post by **Mosh_Mosh_Revolution** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 3:05 pm

Thank you, Malictus. I knew that I wasn't the only one, but it really helps to have someone that understands as part of this conversation.

I'm in the stage between the faith I grew up with and the faith I want to choose myself. I haven't yet made any definite decisions as to what I want. I believe that there is a higher power. I'm not going to deny that. But I need to decide it it's a matter of whether I believe in something like God, or if I believe that yes, there is something bigger, but I have control over my own fate.

Last summer, the councellors from the camp I went to when I was younger called. My brother had been at camp that week, and he'd decided that he wanted to be baptized. I lied to them and said I was my mother, and told them that I'd rather that he give his life to Christ at home after he'd talked to his family.

My parents were all kinds of pissed about that. My father turned an exquisite shade of red that I dare say I'll never see again.

My brother isn't baptized yet because of what I did. Who knows what this summer will bring, though.

When I made that decision so early, I felt as if I'd jumped into a bottomless pool without first learning how to swim. If I can do nothing else for my brother, I want to save him from the way I felt when I'd made that decision without having knowledge of what I'm getting into.

classic candy · Post by **classic candy** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 3:59 pm

lol.. that's how you learn to swim.. trust me.. if you jump into a bottomless pool, you'll learn to swim pretty damn fast.

Anyway, I was baptised as a baby, and as such, I don't remember anything about it. I went to Church every other Sunday with my dad until my little sister was born, and then we couldn't really go. I had a falling out with my dad when I was 9, and didn't seem him again for four years. About that time I decided I would rather try a different religion. He flipped his lid, and beat the shit out of me.. almost literally. He broke a blood vessel in my face, which is just now starting to heal, and lost whatever trust I had in him. It's taken him almost 5 years to regain that trust, and I still don't trust him completely.

Religion can make people crazy.

malictus · Post by **malictus** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 4:18 pm

I think everyone goes through a questioning phase, usually in your teens. Your parents have taught you about how they see the world and religion, but as you approach adulthood you begin to question everything.

In some cases, it's just the opposite as what I described above; the children of non-religious parents might start going to church, and investigating religion.

Of course, you may in the end go back to exactly the same beliefs as your parents, and that's fine; many people do. But the point is, now the beliefs are your OWN; you've arrived at that place yourself.

Pumeleon · Post by **Pumeleon** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 4:31 pm

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BladeFist87 · Post by **BladeFist87** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:16 pm

I can relate to alot of the others posting on how they were brought up religiously and how it has negatively affected them. I am the invrese. I was raised in a home with values, but God or Jesus was never really a subject. Chruch was something that happened every other Easter. Then about 2 years ago i started going to church for myself, to see what was out there, and (prepares for flame), I did find God and gave my life to Jesus, and since then, its been up and down but I find that my Faith is a massive support to me both when things get rough and when things are great.

I feel like there is a terrible stigma in the world, and most of it is justified due to fanatical actions of some people. I, for one, refuse to push my beliefs on others, pecause i would appriciate thej pushing them on me. If someone is having problems or wants to hear about my take on God, then I am happy to share, but its the people who go nuts and act "perfect" that give Christianty a bad name. Ill be the first to admit,I'm just about the worst Christian ever when it comes to "is he good enough" standards. But in my book that doesnt mean that I'm not a child of God or that im unforgiven, it means i'm a sinner just like everyone else.

As to the article, the majority of the people are right here, its wack. Freedom of relgion is something that I take very seriously because, mainstream or not, Christianity is a religion and I would be very upset if I was told I couldent prictice it.

The world would be a whole lot bettter place if some people could just look at things with and open mind and heart, no?

Original Sin · Post by **Original Sin** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:28 pm

malictus wrote:I think everyone goes through a questioning phase, usually in your teens. Your parents have taught you about how they see the world and religion, but as you approach adulthood you begin to question everything.

In some cases, it's just the opposite as what I described above; the children of non-religious parents might start going to church, and investigating religion.

Of course, you may in the end go back to exactly the same beliefs as your parents, and that's fine; many people do. But the point is, now the beliefs are your OWN; you've arrived at that place yourself.

Exactly. The odds are, even if you're left to your own devices on religion, you'll gravitate back to the religion of your parents over time, whether they force you into it or not. We're still a christian majority, and obviously it's influences are everywhere.
A lot of parents seem to think that not teaching their child about God will mean they'll wind up worshipping the devil, or sacrificing small animals while dancing naked around a fire. They fail to realize that religions such as that are small, and extremely hard to find...you're not going to accidentely stumble into that kind of group. You'll have to have interest in it, and look for it. Furthermore, it takes a certain kind of person to take interest in that, and it's not going to matter if you went to church as a kid or not. In fact, I'm willing to venture that most satanists get involved not because they love the devil, but because they hate god.
Why would someone hate god? Perhaps being forced to believe in god while you're a child, and struggling to break free takes it's toll after a while? Now, I'm not saying everyone forced into christianity will turn to the 'Dark Side' (oooh, spooky!), but it most likely will have a profound effect on a person.

Just for the record, people that actually worship the christian devil are quite rare. Satanism, in it's true form, has nothing to do with christianity at all. It's simply a practice of raising yourself above others. Self gratification, if you will, through whatever means necessary. Some of these people practice black magic as well, which is where that idea comes from...but not all of them.
Also, black magic in itself has nothing to do with the devil either. The two are separate, unless you're studying from a book in which someone specifically tried to combine them. I believe some of them exist now. Old world magic in it's true form is hard to find. It's been rewritten, combined and diluted for so many years.

Blaze · Post by **Blaze** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:37 pm

Original Sin wrote: Just for the record, people that actually worship the christian devil are quite rare. Satanism, in it's true form, has nothing to do with christianity at all. It's simply a practice of raising yourself above others. Self gratification, if you will, through whatever means necessary. Some of these people practice black magic as well, which is where that idea comes from...but not all of them.
Also, black magic in itself has nothing to do with the devil either. The two are separate, unless you're studying from a book in which someone specifically tried to combine them. I believe some of them exist now. Old world magic in it's true form is hard to find. It's been rewritten, combined and diluted for so many years.

I believe a Foamy the Squirrel Cartoon put it best when it potrayed Wicca as the 'Hip religion for a young 'goth' teenager' and included books on love spells and ways to kill parents. If you care to view it, I might just let you have a link.

To see it click Here.
Oops I lied, you can click here!

fpd · Post by **fpd** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:19 pm

I really have a strong hate for religion. I hate it, and I hate the people who try to force it on me daily, which is a big reason why I hate bush so much.

My parents got me baptised way before I knew what the hell it was. I'm atheist now, which is nice for me.

Most kids are made to be christian from the moment they're born, their parents make them believe it. Like whoever it was (Soma?) earlier that said you shouldn't be exposed to it until you're an adult. That's exactly what I believe.