Freedom of religion...Or not.

Original Sin · Post by **Original Sin** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:55 pm

I got this article from a friend of mine today, and obviously it bothered me a bit.

Read.
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a ... /505260481

Discuss.

Mosh_Mosh_Revolution · Post by **Mosh_Mosh_Revolution** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 7:17 pm

Wow, that sounds a lot like what's happening in my house right now.

I'm giving a persuasive speech next week on keeping prayer and religion out of public classrooms and places.

I'm not saying take "In God We Trust" off money or "Under God" out of the pledge, but my parents are absolutely furious that I'm trying to persuade people against the beliefs they profess.

Funny that the judge is keeping Wicca out of the child's life. Last time I checked, witches didn't start wars or rage over things that shouldn't be controversies in the first place.

LikeableRodent · Post by **LikeableRodent** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 7:45 pm

It's an idiot judge, and I assure you that it'll be overturned.

Original Sin · Post by **Original Sin** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:39 pm

I'm pretty sure it will be as well, I just find it rather...crazy, that a judge thinks he can do something like that to begin with.
It makes me wonder how some of these people get appointed as judges to begin with.

UmmeiGenkai · Post by **UmmeiGenkai** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:04 pm

I hope it's overturned. Even if the child didn't want to be wiccan i'm almost sure it's against wiccan belief to force anyone into the religion, so that wouldn't be a problem, that judge is an idiot.

malictus · Post by **malictus** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:07 pm

In a similar vein, I read this article recently:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/05/31/churchsentence.ap/

What are these idiot judges thinking???

Yume_Taira · Post by **Yume_Taira** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:58 pm

As far as I see it, this era is a more minor version of the whole Cold War paranoia and religion trip.

They're trying to get America back to a standard way of life; the whole wife, 2.3 kids, and a dog type thing. It only fits in that we throw the "freedom of religion (as long as it's Christian)" back into the mix.

The good thing about this is that from the Civil Rights Movements come case precedents which are not easily overturned. So, expected some appellate court actions VERY soon. ^_^

P.S. WTP Unit 4 Forever!!!

Soma · Post by **Soma** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:28 am

Personally, I don't think children should be exposed to religion at all; It is an adult decision. It's simply not right to indoctine one into a system until they can make up their own mind.

Yume is absolutely correct on the cold war call; if we don't go balls out against the muslim nations on that slant, we're bound to object against china's economy and globalization effort. It sickens me that as a country (not to speak of the many individuals thinking otherwise) we can't manage to accept other ways of life; We don't have to strengthen them, letting them take their own course is fine. As long as they don't directly fuck with us, who cares?

For that matter, we tote America as the land of the free; this isn't so. A commedian made the remark that we were essentially founded by the sects who were too strict for everyone else to put up with, and it's true. Formerly, our presidents got away with standinga side from the norm, but as of late, they seem to be gravitating more towards that very thing. While I do not doubt that cases such as this will be overturned, if we continue down this path, I expect to see many more of such.

God Of Rock · Post by **God Of Rock** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:28 am

THEY CANT TELL ME NOT TO WORSHIP THE DEVIL.

I'M GONNA GO LISTEN TO LINKIN PARK.

seveneleven · Post by **seveneleven** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:42 am

IMO i agree, religion is somthing that could and shoudl only be truly dictated by an adult whom has expericend more in life...hence why
most "major" documentions and declerations were also stated they were obligated to include some statment of partial redemption..."In God We Trust" Which is printed on almost all US currency, but in a deep point in thought why? Kids are influenced by everything that seems "adult to them...so by putting the said statment on our countrys currencey they are "burning" if you will the thought thata God is a higher power. Hence the reson there are people attempting to have congress remove ""Under God.." from the Pledge of Eligence...there just enfluenecing children to belive in a being of higher power that can be controled by our society.
But even so....im not an adult so pretty much my opinion does not just any consideration or justification so i thank you for reading this(if you did

)

Original Sin · Post by **Original Sin** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:21 am

Soma wrote:Personally, I don't think children should be exposed to religion at all; It is an adult decision. It's simply not right to indoctine one into a system until they can make up their own mind.

Yume is absolutely correct on the cold war call; if we don't go balls out against the muslim nations on that slant, we're bound to object against china's economy and globalization effort. It sickens me that as a country (not to speak of the many individuals thinking otherwise) we can't manage to accept other ways of life; We don't have to strengthen them, letting them take their own course is fine. As long as they don't directly fuck with us, who cares?

For that matter, we tote America as the land of the free; this isn't so. A commedian made the remark that we were essentially founded by the sects who were too strict for everyone else to put up with, and it's true. Formerly, our presidents got away with standinga side from the norm, but as of late, they seem to be gravitating more towards that very thing. While I do not doubt that cases such as this will be overturned, if we continue down this path, I expect to see many more of such.

Perfectly stated. We keep spouting 'land of the free,' and to an extent that's true. We DO have more opportunities and freedoms than other countries, however we're only 'free' if we follow the mainstream, majority opionion. We're so brainwashed as Americans into thinking our way of life is the best, we can't stand to see other countries or groups with different ideals than our own.
And I too agree that religion is an adult decision. True, your parents will naturally pass on what they believe, that's human nature. however, they should not force it onto a child. Example:"You're going to go to church, you're going to go to bible study, and your'e going to believe in god!"
Sure, take a child to church when they're young a few times, let them see what it is. If they ask, tell them about it. But you can't force it down their throats. That's half the reason, if not more, that people in this country are so unable to see things from another perspective. Most people in this nation grew up christian, grew up being taught that believing in god and jesus is the ONLY way, and that anyone who doesn't believe is going to hell, or worships the devil. More or less, it's 'you're with us, or against us.'

And yes, whoever it was that stated it, a big part of wicca and other pagan religions is tolerance of other religions. Most pagans I know have different views, and different beliefs, but they get along just fine. Why? Because they've realized that theirs is not the 'only way.' If the rest of the nation could learn that, we wouldn't have half as many problems as we do now.

seveneleven · Post by **seveneleven** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:29 am

Indeed!

Original Sin · Post by **Original Sin** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:39 am

I just read Malictus's article. It's...interesting.

It's a good concept, I guess, but yes. It clearly violates the separation of church and state. He may have good intentions, but it's not something you can legally do in the judicial system.

Personally, I don't really give a damn if they remove 'under god' from everything, unless they're forcing kids to say the pledge with 'under god,' and all that jive still in it. Last I heard, our lovely governor Daniels is trying ot mandate that all students say the pledge of alliegience before starting class. Now, if they're forcing kids to say it, things get sticky. Pledge allegience to the country? Sure, why not. But to god, in a public school? I think not.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying kids can't talk about god, or learn about a few religious beliefs, but so far as I've ever seen, it's only been the christian beliefs. If they want to talk religion, they need to either do it equally, or not do it at all. And trust me, it's A LOT easier just to NOT DO IT. There's a lot of religions out there...trust me on that one.

seveneleven · Post by **seveneleven** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:43 am

Well i belive somewhat in our "free" country but in school i never stand during the National Anthem nor the Pledge of Alliegence but thats because i belive our counrty has gone to shit in a handbag over the past few decades with all the fighting about religion and such ...I mean i understand that it may be litle but i just dont see why i should "respect" my country when its whole basis is crap...

but thats just me

Original Sin · Post by **Original Sin** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:00 am

I like what America stands for, the over all idea and all that. Freedom, liberty, etc etc...our leaders are just going about it in the wrong way. In short: Good concept, bad execution.

Also, the religion thing hasn't really been a big deal until fairly recently. I'd say, maybe 20 to 30 years or so. In the past, most of America was Christian, and thus, Christian values were more widely accepted as the norm, not because they were forced in everyone's face, but because almost everyone held them to be true anyway.
However, informaton is much easier to come by now. The internet has made finding informaton on pagan, new age, or other religions in general much easier than it was in the past. And now, almost any bookstore you go into has a rather large 'New Age' section, with a wide variety of religious topics. (you can buy a satanic bible at barnes and noble, for example.)
So now, we've got a much larger group of people questioning Christian beliefs, not in secret, but right out in the open. Theres a huge number of new age and pagan religions that are gaining enormous amounts of believers, and while Christianity is still a majority, it's not as widely accepted as it used to be.
Now that people realize they can't be stoned or thrown in jail for 'Worshping the Devil,' they're going to speak out about their beliefs, and demand their civil rights. It's not about being black, or white, racial liberties anymore. It's about religion. That, and gay rights are the next big thing when it comes to civil rights.