DAVE&BUSTERS

Discussion of arcades and other gaming locations with music/rhythm games

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Re: DAVE&BUSTERS

Post by Ho » Tue Aug 11, 2015 8:28 am

Diamondback1996 wrote:Also I heard that the D&B tests will be unannounced (why? This never made sense to me), so it would be good to check D&B every few days. Chances are they won't start until after the Round1 test finishes.
You're willing to check back every few days in response to an rumored, unannounced test. I think you answered your own question. ;)
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Re: DAVE&BUSTERS

Post by Amp Divorax » Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:29 am

Ho wrote:
Diamondback1996 wrote:Also I heard that the D&B tests will be unannounced (why? This never made sense to me), so it would be good to check D&B every few days. Chances are they won't start until after the Round1 test finishes.
You're willing to check back every few days in response to an rumored, unannounced test. I think you answered your own question. ;)
Another reason for not announcing in the US is that Konami of America allegedly throws out the test results if too many non-locals go to it. (This was some Bemanistyle era conjecture though so I question if this is true.)
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Re: DAVE&BUSTERS

Post by Diamondback1996 » Tue Aug 18, 2015 2:27 pm

Amp Divorax wrote:
Ho wrote:
Diamondback1996 wrote:Also I heard that the D&B tests will be unannounced (why? This never made sense to me), so it would be good to check D&B every few days. Chances are they won't start until after the Round1 test finishes.
You're willing to check back every few days in response to an rumored, unannounced test. I think you answered your own question. ;)
Another reason for not announcing in the US is that Konami of America allegedly throws out the test results if too many non-locals go to it. (This was some Bemanistyle era conjecture though so I question if this is true.)
This is what I heard. Although I'm not sure how many Bemani fans would actually go to a test in Indiana.

2014 is now testing at the Irvine, CA location. Hopefully it goes well.

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Re: DAVE&BUSTERS

Post by GMSRocks104 » Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:02 pm

KOA and Konami in general isn't going to take risks for a DDR machine in much of the USA let alone Indiana considering their desperation in money (cutting AAA titles in favor of Pachinko machines), so I think the test runs in highly populated areas is as far as they will go. I hate to sound like a pessimist but we need to think about this realistically..

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Re: DAVE&BUSTERS

Post by MonMotha » Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:39 am

What I find odd is Konami's propensity to "test" things but never offer them for sale in the country. Several games have been produced in Japan (sunk cost, recovered by sales in Japan), localized for USA (sunk cost, not recovered by location testing), and subsequently shelved forever. I can understand that it may be difficult to justify localization as it's far from a cheap process, but if they've already gone to the effort, I can't think of many reasons not to offer it for sale at that point. It just seems very odd to put forth 90%+ of the development effort, which is where a lot of the cost is, and then not follow through on the bulk revenue generation phase. There are ways they could offer these games for sale that would incur very little additional risk beyond what's been put forth to develop and localize it in the first place. While those methods are likely to increase cost and lead time for potential buyers which will surely drive many buyers away, you're looking at "some revenue" vs. "no revenue".

I wonder if they maybe secure licensing of the content for location testing only and not general sale? That and lack of distribution infrastructure - they shuttered their AC unit in the early 2000s and seem to have cut ties with Betson, too - that may need to be developed seem to be the only things that come to mind.
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Re: DAVE&BUSTERS

Post by Amp Divorax » Thu Sep 24, 2015 12:57 pm

MonMotha wrote:What I find odd is Konami's propensity to "test" things but never offer them for sale in the country. Several games have been produced in Japan (sunk cost, recovered by sales in Japan), localized for USA (sunk cost, not recovered by location testing), and subsequently shelved forever. I can understand that it may be difficult to justify localization as it's far from a cheap process, but if they've already gone to the effort, I can't think of many reasons not to offer it for sale at that point. It just seems very odd to put forth 90%+ of the development effort, which is where a lot of the cost is, and then not follow through on the bulk revenue generation phase. There are ways they could offer these games for sale that would incur very little additional risk beyond what's been put forth to develop and localize it in the first place. While those methods are likely to increase cost and lead time for potential buyers which will surely drive many buyers away, you're looking at "some revenue" vs. "no revenue".

I wonder if they maybe secure licensing of the content for location testing only and not general sale? That and lack of distribution infrastructure - they shuttered their AC unit in the early 2000s and seem to have cut ties with Betson, too - that may need to be developed seem to be the only things that come to mind.
The economics are actually why I question what some have said about their tests being solely for keeping some of the patents that Konami has. To say the least, there are far more affordable methods of keeping the supposed patents alive and if by some miracle there isn't then it may not be worth keeping them if they aren't bringing in revenues domestically.
Last edited by Amp Divorax on Fri Sep 25, 2015 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: DAVE&BUSTERS

Post by MonMotha » Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:22 pm

Patents don't work like trademarks. You don't lose them because you don't use them, and using them doesn't let you extend them beyond a certain point.

Patents from the era of DDR would run for 20 years from date of filing in the USA, assuming they kept up with all the requisite interim filings and fees. I guess it's vaguely possible some of them were filed before the change in term on June 8, 1995 and would be for 17 years after date of issue which can be delayed via various tricks ("submarine patents"). We're approaching when they should all run out if they haven't already. As long as you don't infringe upon their trademarks ("Konami", "Dance Dance Revolution"), trade dress ("Show me your moves", possibly things like red/blue arrows or the overall look and feel of said panels and on-screen graphics, and, maybe, if somebody's feeling generous, general cabinet shape), or copyright (music and the game software itself, cabinet artwork), you could clone the game (changing the aforementioned) and sell a total workalike once those patents are expired. Heck, if you licensed the music (much of it was independent from the game), you could possibly even come up with a track list almost identical to early DDR. Interestingly, barring "submarine patents", the exhibiting of DDR in 1998 would be definitive proof that, by 2019 (20 years + the 1 year filing grace period after initial public disclosure), no part of that game is under patent since the exhibition is itself public disclosure and therefore prior art which makes it impossible to patent any part of that original exhibition later on (this doesn't mean it wasn't done, but it shouldn't have been possible).

Now, what they would be able to do is file NEW patents on NEW aspects of the game. However, they don't need to physically, publicly exhibit the claims to do that. In the good ol' USA, you usually don't even have to show that what you're claiming is even physically possible, let alone that you've done it. You can simply file a patent that claims whatever idea it is that you had, banal as incremental improvements to DDR may be, and (assuming the USPTO agrees with you) get yourself a shiny new patent.

This does bring up one little thing they do gain from loctesting this stuff. It has been publicly exhibited, as of the loctest, in the USA. This would prevent somebody ELSE from patenting any new pieces of the game in the USA since the loctest is public disclosure and therefore prior art as far as future patent submissions are concerned. I'm guessing Konami doesn't pursue US patents as aggressively as they do Japanese ones. They'd certainly not want somebody patenting their game out from underneath them. This kinda-sorta happened with DDR/PIU and is likely to be one reason why there was such a hiatus of arcade DDR in the USA. Full on loctesting with localization seems like an awfully expensive way to go about that. All they'd really need to do is just reasonably conspicuously publish technical details or make available for inspection a sample of the game. Even just carting an unlocalized machine over to a friendly venue in California for a few days and letting people ooh and ahh over it should very definitively do the trick, especially if they publicize it in some local media.

It's worth pointing out, here, that I'm not a lawyer, and I'm certainly not your lawyer. I don't even play a lawyer on TV (and I have, in fact, been on TV). It's possible the above is complete hogwash, but it is, as far as I know, correct.
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Re: DAVE&BUSTERS

Post by Amp Divorax » Fri Sep 25, 2015 6:33 am

MonMotha wrote:Patents don't work like trademarks. You don't lose them because you don't use them, and using them doesn't let you extend them beyond a certain point.

Patents from the era of DDR would run for 20 years from date of filing in the USA, assuming they kept up with all the requisite interim filings and fees. I guess it's vaguely possible some of them were filed before the change in term on June 8, 1995 and would be for 17 years after date of issue which can be delayed via various tricks ("submarine patents"). We're approaching when they should all run out if they haven't already. As long as you don't infringe upon their trademarks ("Konami", "Dance Dance Revolution"), trade dress ("Show me your moves", possibly things like red/blue arrows or the overall look and feel of said panels and on-screen graphics, and, maybe, if somebody's feeling generous, general cabinet shape), or copyright (music and the game software itself, cabinet artwork), you could clone the game (changing the aforementioned) and sell a total workalike once those patents are expired. Heck, if you licensed the music (much of it was independent from the game), you could possibly even come up with a track list almost identical to early DDR. Interestingly, barring "submarine patents", the exhibiting of DDR in 1998 would be definitive proof that, by 2019 (20 years + the 1 year filing grace period after initial public disclosure), no part of that game is under patent since the exhibition is itself public disclosure and therefore prior art which makes it impossible to patent any part of that original exhibition later on (this doesn't mean it wasn't done, but it shouldn't have been possible).

Now, what they would be able to do is file NEW patents on NEW aspects of the game. However, they don't need to physically, publicly exhibit the claims to do that. In the good ol' USA, you usually don't even have to show that what you're claiming is even physically possible, let alone that you've done it. You can simply file a patent that claims whatever idea it is that you had, banal as incremental improvements to DDR may be, and (assuming the USPTO agrees with you) get yourself a shiny new patent.

This does bring up one little thing they do gain from loctesting this stuff. It has been publicly exhibited, as of the loctest, in the USA. This would prevent somebody ELSE from patenting any new pieces of the game in the USA since the loctest is public disclosure and therefore prior art as far as future patent submissions are concerned. I'm guessing Konami doesn't pursue US patents as aggressively as they do Japanese ones. They'd certainly not want somebody patenting their game out from underneath them. This kinda-sorta happened with DDR/PIU and is likely to be one reason why there was such a hiatus of arcade DDR in the USA. Full on loctesting with localization seems like an awfully expensive way to go about that. All they'd really need to do is just reasonably conspicuously publish technical details or make available for inspection a sample of the game. Even just carting an unlocalized machine over to a friendly venue in California for a few days and letting people ooh and ahh over it should very definitively do the trick, especially if they publicize it in some local media.

It's worth pointing out, here, that I'm not a lawyer, and I'm certainly not your lawyer. I don't even play a lawyer on TV (and I have, in fact, been on TV). It's possible the above is complete hogwash, but it is, as far as I know, correct.
Again, this is what the rumor-mill is passing around and sadly some believe to be true. Most of us know such a rumor is kinda ridiculous given how patent trolling works domestically. What has me perplexed is that they are testing the game and the chance for release is very low and how this type of rumor even gained steam. (This potentially may have been due to who posted it.)
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Re: DAVE&BUSTERS

Post by yindesu » Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:39 am

Not sure if anybody here caught the rumor mill, but there was a claim that D&B is getting at least one DDR in a couple months for Texas.

Would be really nice if we ever got DDR on e-AMUSEMENT here

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Re: DAVE&BUSTERS

Post by Amp Divorax » Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:45 am

yindesu wrote:Not sure if anybody here caught the rumor mill, but there was a claim that D&B is getting at least one DDR in a couple months for Texas.

Would be really nice if we ever got DDR on e-AMUSEMENT here
It definitely would be nice, but these sadly are just rumors. The chance of a place like Indianapolis getting a working DDR machine plummeted after 2010 and barring a huge reversal in circumstance I simply don't see it happening now. As for Dave & Busters itself, the overwhelming majority of the games are now redemption, rail shooters, and racing sadly. This change in arcades is what prompted me to buy a PIU cabinet and possibly more arcade cabinets once I have a house finalized.
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Re: DAVE&BUSTERS

Post by Diamondback1996 » Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:12 am

Amp Divorax wrote:
yindesu wrote:Not sure if anybody here caught the rumor mill, but there was a claim that D&B is getting at least one DDR in a couple months for Texas.

Would be really nice if we ever got DDR on e-AMUSEMENT here
It definitely would be nice, but these sadly are just rumors. The chance of a place like Indianapolis getting a working DDR machine plummeted after 2010 and barring a huge reversal in circumstance I simply don't see it happening now. As for Dave & Busters itself, the overwhelming majority of the games are now redemption, rail shooters, and racing sadly. This change in arcades is what prompted me to buy a PIU cabinet and possibly more arcade cabinets once I have a house finalized.
I would say if (IF) D&B gets at least one machine, we're getting one here as well. Our location doesn't have dance games anymore.

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Re: DAVE&BUSTERS

Post by yindesu » Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:16 am


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Re: DAVE&BUSTERS

Post by Diamondback1996 » Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:21 pm

Good news. I honestly would be surprised if we don't get one.

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Re: DAVE&BUSTERS

Post by Merk » Wed Dec 30, 2015 3:43 pm

Do we want to take bets on if we get a cabinet or not?
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Re: DAVE&BUSTERS

Post by Amp Divorax » Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:51 pm

Sadly, our D&B doesn't have the best track record so I doubt if we will actually get one of the cabinets.
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