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Original Sin
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Post by Original Sin » Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:08 am

I wouldn't have a problem with having stricter rules, but the problem is, who's going to enforce them? I don't think anyone on the adnim team wants to have that responsibilitiy, especially Ho. I like his ideas and his ideals for the website, and generally we all seem to get along pretty well. The 'rules' in themselves probably wouldn't even need to be enforced all that often, since there's really only a few people who continuously try to make trouble. Overall, we have a lot of good people here.

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Post by sam » Sun Mar 27, 2005 8:50 am

if you don't want to enforce rules then why be an admin?

that's like taking the job as ceo and then saying all you want is money please head all conflicts to the people below.

constantly every day i have to sit at my job and tell people that yes what they were doing violates the TOS and I get to hear the best sob stories ever as these are fucking idiot trash people that can't afford $6/month hosting.

it's accepting responsibility for the roles you play. if you want to be an admin of a site great! but be aware people do exist that thrive on making other people miserable (commonly referred to as griefers in MMOs) and that these people won't magically go away. you have to have some sort of system to keep these groups in check or else you run into problems of favortism because such and so did this and got banned and such and so did it but did not. the easiest way is to just have a clear set of rules and to enforce them. every successful board runs this way. it is retarded to think a utopian society can exist without rules...HELL EVEN ON LOST THEY HAVE A SET OF RULES AND THEY'RE ON SOME CRAZY ISLAND WITH POLAR BEARS AND MAGIC!
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Post by God Of Rock » Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:38 am

Sam......father my children.....

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Post by Ho » Sun Mar 27, 2005 8:41 pm

sam wrote:if you don't want to enforce rules then why be an admin?

that's like taking the job as ceo and then saying all you want is money please head all conflicts to the people below.
True, but I didn't take this on as a job. I don't get paid for this...never have. In fact, I've actually spent a lot of my own money to continue to support this site and community over the years. IndyDDR was formed as much (more, really) by the people who have been a part of it than anything I've done on my own. I didn't set out to be an admin, I just happened to find a group of people that I enjoyed being with, wanted to stay in touch with, and wanted to get to know better. If I ask for anything in return, it is only that people treat each other and the community itself with the respect that led me to want to be a part of it in the first place.

Is this idealistic? Absolutely. And as the community has grown, it gets less and less realistic. But that's my wish.
sam wrote:it's accepting responsibility for the roles you play. if you want to be an admin of a site great! but be aware people do exist that thrive on making other people miserable (commonly referred to as griefers in MMOs) and that these people won't magically go away. you have to have some sort of system to keep these groups in check or else you run into problems of favortism because such and so did this and got banned and such and so did it but did not.
I have been fortunate that for the most part people have been good to each other here and I haven't had to get involved in very many 'disciplinary' actions. But I have taken action over the years when I thought things were getting out of control. If it seems that I don't do enough, it is probably due to one of three reasons.
1) I have a very high tolerance. I get a lot of complaints. Most of them I simply don't feel require drastic action...or any action at all. However, I always personally address people's concerns and try to be compassionate even if I am not going to ban someone or lock a thread based on their request.
2) I prefer to do as little as I have to to resolve a problem. I'd much rather see people work things out for themselves than to pass my own judgement on every conflict.
3) I'm doing something else. I don't have unlimited time or resources to devote to this site. I shouldn't have to apologize for that unless you all want to start paying for this service and eliminate my other responsibilities.

I really don't know where you're going with the favoritism slant. If anything, I've been fairly universally leniant.
sam wrote: the easiest way is to just have a clear set of rules and to enforce them. every successful board runs this way. it is retarded to think a utopian society can exist without rules...
I've already made my opinion known on rules. For the most part, IndyDDR has had a culture of cooperation and friendliness without having it dictated. This has fallen by the wayside to some extent as time has gone on and the group has grown. But I think the people that have been around for awhile have done a good job of passing along these ideals to the newer folks. Sure, we have our exceptions, but I think this forum has generally been successful throughout most of its history even without a set of written rules. I'm sorry if you disagree and find my idealism retarded.

In the end, if you think you can do a better job, please do. IndyDDR has no exclusive lock on DDR community sites. You're more than welcome to create your own.
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Post by sam » Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:31 pm

ho i was never calling you out for being favortist, i was just meerly stating it as part of my argument... truthfully I can't recall a moment you really were showing favor over one person to another...not to give you a wrong impression

i understand that you don't need to enforce rules but that's why you have moderators..that's their job...to...moderate...stuff...
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Post by Ho » Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:42 am

Thanks for that acknowledgement, sam. I really do try my best to be fair. It's probably the hardest part of this 'job'.

Since we don't have hard set rules, I enforce ideals. All I really want is for people to treat each other with decency and respect.

I think the moderators do a good job and I take actions personally as well. Actually, the moderators occasionally do things that I probably wouldn't have. But I choose moderators in part because I trust their judgement and am confident in their ability to help guide this site in a positive direction.

I much prefer guidance to control. My apparent lack of action is a reflection of my desire that direct interventions simply not be necessary. I realize that this may be hopelessly idealistic.
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Post by Pheadra » Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:42 pm

So I went to my mother's classroom (she is a first grade teacher) and I saw these rules on the wall....I thought that if the first graders could handle them...SURELY IndyDDR can! So here they are:
Be in control (as in control of yourself)
Be ready to make a plan together
Be ready to compromise and meet in the middle
Be able to walk away and choose something new

Be able to ignore unkind words
Be willing to listen to eachother
Be willing to discuss the problem
Be willing to apologize
Be able to control your anger
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Post by Silent_Blade » Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:17 am

I'm really sorry to say it but I believe that nobody would have to "Be able to ignore unkind words" If people would remember to "Be in control (as in control of yourself)" That's the only real problem I've seen so far is people not trying to subdue their urge to diss people because they have no self control =(
Last edited by Silent_Blade on Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Pheadra » Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:36 am

Silent_Blade wrote:I'm really sorry to say it but I believe that nobody would have to "Be able to ignore unkind words" If people would remember to "Be in control (as in control of yourself)" That's the only real problem I've seen so far is people trying to subdue their urge to diss people because they have no self control =(
Actually, ignoring unkind words is one of the easiest rules....especially on the intraweb...you just dont read what they say! I find it a lot harder in real life, but on the internet its so much easier.

Besides, who said following these rules are easy?
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Post by Fluffyumpkins » Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:59 pm

OrangeLounger wrote:This web sucks. >=(

I just got it, lol.

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Post by Original Sin » Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:54 pm

Regardless of 'ignorance being bliss' as you say, that doesn't give people an excuse to say whatever they want to people. There's two ends to the problem, and I don't think it's fair to let the antagonists off without so much as a slap on the wrist, and put all the blame on people who take offense to them.
I'm not saying your not right, but the problem is multi-faceted, and it's not fair to only look at one side of it.

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Post by Pheadra » Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:58 pm

Original Sin wrote:Regardless of 'ignorance being bliss' as you say, that doesn't give people an excuse to say whatever they want to people. There's two ends to the problem, and I don't think it's fair to let the antagonists off without so much as a slap on the wrist, and put all the blame on people who take offense to them.
I'm not saying your not right, but the problem is multi-faceted, and it's not fair to only look at one side of it.
I completly agree. But I never said ignorance was bliss. I smiply said to be the bigger person and just let it go. Our reactions is what fuels it. Its like a kid throwing a temper tanturm...if you just ignore it, then eventually the kid will stop throwing a fit. I dunno maybe its just me. I have tons of patiences and I have learned to pick and chose my battles. Some people just fight everything.
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Post by Ho » Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:55 am

I also agree. There's no excuse for the unkind remarks that often start a flamewar. However, I think the point is that flaming back--or even responding at all--does not help solve the problem and usually only adds to it. I agree that it's an unfair situation, but the response (or lack of) tends to isolate rather than exacerbate the unjustice.

It sucks that any of us have to be subjected to this kind of thing, but I'd much rather be a part of the solution than just another part of the problem.
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Post by Silent_Blade » Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:23 am

Ho wrote:I also agree. There's no excuse for the unkind remarks that often start a flamewar. However, I think the point is that flaming back--or even responding at all--does not help solve the problem and usually only adds to it. I agree that it's an unfair situation, but the response (or lack of) tends to isolate rather than exacerbate the unjustice.

It sucks that any of us have to be subjected to this kind of thing, but I'd much rather be a part of the solution than just another part of the problem.
Well yes, it's true that responding to a flame is just plain useless and can escalate the situation, however I don't believe it's as simple as you say to just ignore it. You see some people just like to start trouble, it's obvious from reading these forums.

When someone gets flamed they tend to respond back, but I don't believe it's for any other reason then to try and get back at them and punish them for their behavior. However the person who started the conflict is let off with no punishment, IndyDDR looks like a game of favourites to me. Those who started the flame war are usually rarely booed by people other then the attacked, meanwhile the attacked for responding to this unjustice are immediately booed.

The only real reason anyone would need to be subjected to this kind of behaviour is because the people that generally start the flamewars are old members, and nobody stops them (Fovouritism), I'm not asking for anyone to get banned, but some kind of punishment needs to be issued.

Maybe minimizing their posts to 10 posts a day or less ~ This would 'cause those who cause trouble to really put some thought into their posts and possibly think "Do I really want to waste my few posts on flaming?"

Possibly weeklong bans~ Well not much is needed in explanation.

I know you don't want to be the baby sitter Brian, but there needs to be some rules, and somekind of punishments need to be enforced. I mean IndyDDR is practically hostile to anyone considering joining the community because on the first page on conversations cornucopia there are like 4 or 5 threads that have been locked because the same people started flame wars.

I'd love the thought of a community without need for anyone in charge to keep it civil...If such a thing were possible, people just don't get along and that's why we have laws set down and people to enforce those laws IRL.

I know you put the rating system in to give the people the choice to who stays and who goes, but somehow the flamers always have somebody AAing their posts to keep them up high enough and out of danger no-matter how rude or offensive their post may have been.
Flamers stick together.
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Post by Pheadra » Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:37 am

Silent_Blade wrote:
Ho wrote:I also agree. There's no excuse for the unkind remarks that often start a flamewar. However, I think the point is that flaming back--or even responding at all--does not help solve the problem and usually only adds to it. I agree that it's an unfair situation, but the response (or lack of) tends to isolate rather than exacerbate the unjustice.

It sucks that any of us have to be subjected to this kind of thing, but I'd much rather be a part of the solution than just another part of the problem.
Well yes, it's true that responding to a flame is just plain useless and can escalate the situation, however I don't believe it's as simple as you say to just ignore it. You see some people just like to start trouble, it's obvious from reading these forums.

When someone gets flamed they tend to respond back, but I don't believe it's for any other reason then to try and get back at them and punish them for their behavior. However the person who started the conflict is let off with no punishment, IndyDDR looks like a game of favourites to me. Those who started the flame war are usually rarely booed by people other then the attacked, meanwhile the attacked for responding to this unjustice are immediately booed.

The only real reason anyone would need to be subjected to this kind of behaviour is because the people that generally start the flamewars are old members, and nobody stops them (Fovouritism), I'm not asking for anyone to get banned, but some kind of punishment needs to be issued.

Maybe minimizing their posts to 10 posts a day or less ~ This would 'cause those who cause trouble to really put some thought into their posts and possibly think "Do I really want to waste my few posts on flaming?"

Possibly weeklong bans~ Well not much is needed in explanation.

I know you don't want to be the baby sitter Brian, but there needs to be some rules, and somekind of punishments need to be enforced. I mean IndyDDR is practically hostile to anyone considering joining the community because on the first page on conversations cornucopia there are like 4 or 5 threads that have been locked because the same people started flame wars.

I'd love the thought of a community without need for anyone in charge to keep it civil...If such a thing were possible, people just don't get along and that's why we have laws set down and people to enforce those laws IRL.

I know you put the rating system in to give the people the choice to who stays and who goes, but somehow the flamers always have somebody AAing their posts to keep them up high enough and out of danger no-matter how rude or offensive their post may have been.
Flamers stick together.
That is why we have the rating system! That is their punishment. Lets take Casey for example. He was standard, and now he is down to warning, he has limited posts that he can use and he cant even rate someone a 'great' if he wanted to....and surprise surprise Casey is one of the "oldies." There is no favoritism going on here...well its not as big as you believe it to be.

The injustice that you have noticed is abuse of the rating system, yes. But I believe the people that are using the rating system like it should be outweigh the ones that are abusing it.

Week long bans dont work. period.

The person who starts the flame war is "Punished" be getting 'booed' or 'miss' thats it. When someone responds to it they are going to get booed as well because they are just esculating the situation.

And btw it takes a mature person with patience and understand to ignore something. Like I said it isn't easy but you could at least give it a try.

Im not trying to step on your toes or anything its just that I have tried this whole 'ignoring' thing all my life and I seem to be a happy panda with rare conflicts in my life.

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