Arcade operators and meeting player expectations

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th34nt0ni0
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Post by th34nt0ni0 » Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:47 am

vdb be BLOWIN this thread UP

get a fucking life

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Post by mexican ninja » Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:09 pm

I would just like to point out that Fort Wayne has seen a Beatmania machine, a Guitar Freaks machine, and a Keyboardmania machine (of whatever they're all called I kinda forgot) and they all fared rather poorly. And I don't mean to brag but Fort Wayne really holds it down when it comes to dancing games in the state of Indiana. We simply don't have the fanbase for such machines.

DDR on the otherhand is much more mainstream. heck I saw some dude with a grill on playing ITG and DDR a couple days ago. That really tripped me out.

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Post by th34nt0ni0 » Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:28 am

mexican ninja wrote:heck I saw some dude with a grill on playing ITG and DDR a couple days ago.
OMG i know rite

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Post by Amp Divorax » Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:10 pm

PlayerTwo, is the location you speak of Eatza Pizza in Muncie, IN?
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Post by Ryuhayabusa » Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:54 pm

Agreed, DDR will bring in more People Then ITG. But i think if your gona have one you should have the other.

ITG tends to cater to a more refined taste XD.

I played DDR until i was decent and met ITG and now im finding myself wanting to play ITG more then DDR. Because the ITG machine that was at rascels(?) let you play custom songs.
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Post by Fluffyumpkins » Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:24 pm

Ryuhayabusa wrote:Agreed, DDR will bring in more People Then ITG. But i think if your gona have one you should have the other.

ITG tends to cater to a more refined taste XD.

I played DDR until i was decent and met ITG and now im finding myself wanting to play ITG more then DDR. Because the ITG machine that was at rascels(?) let you play custom songs.
ITG refined? Pass on that. ITG caters to the competitive.

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Post by PlayerTwo » Sun Nov 11, 2007 6:43 pm

Hey, all. Still here, just checking in.

We had a few setbacks that have delayed getting the DDR finished and moved in but I'm confident that the machine will look and perform all the better for it. It might very well happen this week. I'll be sure to let the crew here know when it's ready for inspection.

To answer a couple questions:

Amp: I'm afraid I haven't expanded my operating territory quite as far as Muncie, just yet. This location is the Greendale Cinema in Greendale, IN, near Lawrenceburg.

WhiteDragon: The PIU DX we acquired appears to be an Extra. Unfortunately, it's not currently as operable as we had hoped. I'll post my findings and possibly a plea for assistance over in the PIU forum. Assuming it's resurrectable, I'd opt to upgrade to something like Pro just as soon as possible.

v/r,
Kris

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Re: Arcade operators and meeting player expectations

Post by Aoi-chan » Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:54 pm

I'm just curious, have there been any updates on this new arcade opening?


And to offer a bemani fan/arcade operator perspective to this discussion:

1. DDR still makes very good money overall and is still king among dancing/music games.

2. Drummania does okay revenue wise, but I've never seen one (in mulitple locations over the years paired with a DDR) make near what a DDR makes. Usually its about 1/2 to 1/3 the revenue of a DDR machine.

3. I've seen a Para Para and Dance Maniax together, along with an EZ2Dancer compete with a DDR and Drummania. The Para Para and Dance Maniax made almost no money after a few weeks. The EZ2Dancer wasn't around long enough to really know, but it never made nearly the money.

4. Overall, adding any Bemani or other dance machine might improve revenue at any location, but only certain ones will make a decent amount. Having an ITG machine with a DDR or a PIU can add to the total revenue for that location. But I've also seen it just "spilt" the total dance game revenue between the machines, netting the operator nothing extra in revenue. Having variety in dance machines only makes sense if there is a large enough crowd to support such machines. And certain dance machines will confuse customers more often than you would imagine. Games like ITG or PIU are recognized as "DDR" to casual arcade goers. Other games like Dance Maniax and EZ2 Dancer confuse the heck out of the customer and therefore do not get the repeat play required. (On a side note, do you know how many idiots think the sensors on those games are supposed to be hit, and with as much force as possible?!?!)

5. And while I may get some complaints for this comment, I was shocked at some of the ignorance floating around these boards in the early posts for this thread. Almost every poster mentioned something to the extent of "you must do token deals". One poster mentioned that an arcade was giving away tokens at a huge discount and is going out of business (sorry to say, but a big "duh" was my thought after reading those token discounts).

One of the major problems with games like DDR is the cost per game is so low verses the time per play. From an operator's standpoint, the average DDR game takes about 5-10 minutes, which varies on number of stages, time between rounds, etc. If 1 token costs roughly a quarter, baring any token discounts, and 1 game of DDR costs 3 tokens, then an operator is only making .75 cents for 1 player on average every 8 minutes. With token discounts and other factors, the average token is maybe worth 20 cents. Even if 2 people are playing on the machine for 1 hour, that's 7-8 games played and about $12 the machine has made in 1 hour ($9.60 with token deals).

Now compare that to most any other game in the arcade. Initial D for example at 3 tokens per play averages to about 3-4 minutes per play. (My Initial D machine was making tons more than the DDR and ITG2 machines combined, and we had strong followings for each game) Using the same numbers as DDR, we've doubled our revenue with this game to $24 in that same hour. Now factor in ticket redemption games where a person may spend 1 token in about 5 seconds or spend 2 tokens on a newer skee ball machine that gives about 1 minute of play time.

The point I'm trying to make is that DDR players already have it really cheap when it comes to playing a game. 5 bucks can last you an hour of non-stop play by yourself. Making it one of the cheapest arcade games out there. But in terms of the operator paying anywhere from $7000 to $16000 for 1 DDR machine (or any other arcade machine), you can see why arcades are closing across the country and why other Bemani games are not very popular.

I guess my point to this section is to make players more aware of the business side to DDR. Putting aside the software problems with DDR or any other dance machine, the sheer cost of a machine, maintaining it and having a solid fanbase to support it takes a lot to make it a worthwhile investment. DDR has gone from an underground society to mainstream, which is why more machines are popping up across the country. Until this happens with other Bemani titles, they will remain unpopular in the US and hard to find. Maybe Konami will get their act together and market other dance/simulator in the US better than in the past and not let Rock Band and Guitar Hero steal all the glory. Or will we see GH and RB in arcades before that happens :wink:

Be kind to your fellow DDR fan and stay friendly with your local arcade operator. Have a great day!
Last edited by Aoi-chan on Sat May 31, 2008 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Arcade operators and meeting player expectations

Post by Ho » Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:12 am

You make very excellent points. I cannot tell you how many times I've seen players fail to understand the operator perspective and vice versa. I think it should also be noted though that many operators (in my experience) seem completely uninterested in the player experience and how players regard the operators as completely unapproachable. When this kind of a wall exists between the two, it's no wonder when each decides the other is out of touch.

Fortunately, a few select operators have stepped up and reached out to the community making their best efforts to provide a quality experience. They just have to walk the fine line between the wants of their customers and tending to the needs of their own business. I've seen some take it too far in offering unsustainable deals that may increase plays but ultimately sink the bottom line.

At any rate, I certainly salute the operators that make these efforts. I've had the good fortune to be a part of a few communities of players that have benefited from these types of operators. The experience, environment, and friendships forged as a result have been invaluable and are the leading reason to why I first gained interest in and have remained with these games for so long.
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Re: Arcade operators and meeting player expectations

Post by letshavetea » Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:29 pm

The point of token deals is really to attract players to THAT arcade over other arcades.

There's an arcade about an hour away from here that on Wednesdays they have DDR/ITG/PIU at 2 tokens a play and the ITG is always on doubles premium. So when I go there, I bring other friends that aren't necessarily interested in dancing games too. Token deals attract customers, that's the point of them.

There's another arcade around here that during the summer you get 45 tokens for $10. All the more incentive for a customer to go back to THAT arcade rather than the other four arcades within 10 miles of their house.

It's just another form of advertising.

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Re: Arcade operators and meeting player expectations

Post by Ho » Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:49 pm

That's true, but the point he was making is that there is a sort of "maximum throughput"--particularly for music games. With a typical game taking on the order of 6+ minutes, the most you can really hope to earn in that time is two credits worth (two players). Even at $1 per credit, that's a much lower earning rate than something like...say, Deal or No Deal which can suck $2 out of a player in like 2 minutes. Or heck, a coin pusher can probably suck $2 out of a player in < 1 min.

These machines are really expensive and there's a lot of overhead to running such a business. So if you discount your tokens too much, you could very well increase business but fail to actually cover your costs. In the long run, this is good for no one.

In my observation, I think this is why traditional arcades are disappearing. It's just too hard to make money on games alone. If you're shelling out $15K+ for just one game like DDR, it's going to take a good long while just to make that investment back at $1 per play. And that's not even taking into account all the other costs involved with running the business.

I believe that's why we're seeing more entertainment venues with many different offerings including arcade games. They might not make money directly on the games, but they're one of many attractions that can bring people into the store where they can sell you food, merchandise, party rentals, etc. that they actually can make enough of a margin on to stay afloat...or better yet, make an actual profit!
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Re: Arcade operators and meeting player expectations

Post by Aoi-chan » Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:44 pm

letshavetea wrote:The point of token deals is really to attract players to THAT arcade over other arcades.

It's just another form of advertising.
Obviously that's the reason for token deals and I totally agree with the basic idea. Unfortunately with arcades dying the way they are, expect to see token deals disappearing or becoming less attractive. Take advantage of them while they last and hopefully you won't buy a ton and find that arcade closed the next time you show up.
Ho wrote:You make very excellent points. I cannot tell you how many times I've seen players fail to understand the operator perspective and vice versa. I think it should also be noted though that many operators (in my experience) seem completely uninterested in the player experience and how players regard the operators as completely unapproachable. When this kind of a wall exists between the two, it's no wonder when each decides the other is out of touch.

I believe that's why we're seeing more entertainment venues with many different offerings including arcade games. They might not make money directly on the games, but they're one of many attractions that can bring people into the store where they can sell you food, merchandise, party rentals, etc. that they actually can make enough of a margin on to stay afloat...or better yet, make an actual profit!
Thanks for the kind words and understanding the message. I was worried this may end up becoming another long winded rant about nothing.

I completely agree with your points and have seen everything you've mentioned first hand over the years. DDR players are too often elitists and arcade operators just don't understand or don't care about the hardcore players, be it music games, fighters or what have you. Somewhere in the middle we might find peace and harmony. Honestly though, it will most likely never happen. Games like DDR are too "complex" for the average operator to truely understand, either as a player or a tech fixing the game. Oddly enough, that's maybe why I do understand the mix of the two, as I was a DDR player before working in the arcade industry.

Ho, you nailed it with your explanation about how arcades stay profitable in the long run with today's industry. Having redemption, food and other activities is the best way to run an arcade today (from a business perspective). But overall the industry is switching from single stand alone arcades to the giant multi entertainment centers and arcade games will be more common in bars and movie theaters than your local shopping mall. In the past, arcades could purchase a game or upgrade kit for just a few hundred dollars and literally make back that money in a matter of days or weeks. Today, the average video game is a few thousand, with deluxe games costing more than cars! It takes months to years in some cases to fully pay of that purchase. With pc gaming and home consoles dominating the market, who didn't see this one coming?

And a funny little thought to leave you all, look how cheap it is to play an arcade game compared to 20-30 years ago? Pacman was a quarter in 1980 and it's still priced at 1 quarter even today. But that same Pacman machine now costs over $2000 to buy verses the couple hundred back then.
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Re: Arcade operators and meeting player expectations

Post by PlayerTwo » Sat May 31, 2008 9:53 pm

Hey, all. Checking in, once again.

Quick update: Yep, the DDR went in some time ago at the cinema and has been generally well received. Generally stays within the top 5 in earnings at that location, following the cranes and merchandisers (folks really like the UFO Catcher and Stacker!). I'm not certain it'll ever have the following there I'd like, though. Seems most of the players are casual at best, choose "We Will Rock You" set to Beginner level and wander off without completing the first stage. I have yet to see any serious players on it, though I'm admittedly not there all the time. The fact that I drew an ooh-ing and ahh-ing crowd playing it once would suggest there really aren't any pros in the area (I'm not even remotely any good).

We placed a PIU today in the gameroom of a small mini-golf/soft serve location, today. It had been eagerly anticipated, however I couldn't seem to make clear the distinction between what was being placed and a DDR: http://www.playertwo.com/sign.jpg

Ah well, it looked as though it was being enjoyed when we left. I'm curious to see how well it earns. Originally placed it at $.50 but the location mgr. asked me to try it at $.75. No problem. We can always go down but can't really go back up.

Oh, for the curious, knowing the question will be asked: MK3 running Premiere 3 set to Easy and 2 Stage Break. We had started out at normal difficulty and nobody "got it." Some complained that the pads weren't sensitive enough. Changed the difficulty, complaints went away and the enjoyment level went up. Going back tomorrow to set up fans on either side of the PiU. Got a bit stuffy in there, today and I'm sure the customers would benefit from some air circulation.

The machine, itself appears to be an early one, more resembling a DDR in the shape of the marquee and cabinet rather than the sleeker GX/SX but seems to be a legit Andamiro. Perhaps some of the resident pros could shed some light on the cab revision.

I had been preparing a DX for this location but ran into trouble with retrofitting the dead original CRT-based system with an LCD projector (I'm beyond proof-of-concept phase, just need the right projector with the right throw, etc.). Ran out of time and only have enough parts between the two cabs to get one running. I've got most of the 2nd harness fabricated and reassembled but one MK3 box is dead and I'm missing an amp box. I'd love to get both working but after the season's up at this location, I'll likely revisit the project and reassemble the best parts into one great machine, preferably the DX, and let the other one go. If anyone's parting out a PIU or has spare bits available, pls let me know.

My apologies to the moderators, as I realize in retrospect I've veered off from the topic with what started out as a simple update to a previous post in this thread.

Kris

Addendum: Apparently the cab placed today was an SD.

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Re: Arcade operators and meeting player expectations

Post by Aoi-chan » Sat May 31, 2008 11:28 pm

PlayerTwo wrote:Quick update: Yep, the DDR went in some time ago at the cinema and has been generally well received. Generally stays within the top 5 in earnings at that location, following the cranes and merchandisers (folks really like the UFO Catcher and Stacker!). I'm not certain it'll ever have the following there I'd like, though. Seems most of the players are casual at best, choose "We Will Rock You" set to Beginner level and wander off without completing the first stage. I have yet to see any serious players on it, though I'm admittedly not there all the time. The fact that I drew an ooh-ing and ahh-ing crowd playing it once would suggest there really aren't any pros in the area (I'm not even remotely any good).

We placed a PIU today in the gameroom of a small mini-golf/soft serve location, today. It had been eagerly anticipated, however I couldn't seem to make clear the distinction between what was being placed and a DDR: http://www.playertwo.com/sign.jpg

Ah well, it looked as though it was being enjoyed when we left. I'm curious to see how well it earns. Originally placed it at $.50 but the location mgr. asked me to try it at $.75. No problem. We can always go down but can't really go back up.
UFO Catcher is one of the hottest new merchandisers! Mine is generally the top earner at one of my locations. Do you use the Sega plush in it too? Also, check out Super Scooper, a new Namco Japan merchandiser that uses small plush. Makes great money too.

DDR in a casual enviornment does exactly as you described. Just look at your player's best list, usually the first couple songs on the song wheel are ranked near #1. Almost nobody goes for high scores on the machine with Non-stop/Oni courses, or are scores all by 1 or 2 people only. Playing Heavy usually draws a crowd at these locations and are great "show off" spots and a great way to get pictures taken of you or even video. Basically put, playing in a movie theater verses a traditional arcade is like night and day.

PIU at .75 cents is correct. Depending on the location you might get away with $1. Certain games just don't benefit from lower prices. My Dance Maniax I had a long time ago was at 2 coins per play, then dropped to 1 coin. Revenue on that game dropped by almost exactly 50%! What a shocker. Same thing happened with a Soul Calibur 2 when it was changed from 2 coins to 1. DDR or ITG at 2 coins per play is such a deal for the player and a 33% net loss to the operator :D

Lowering prices on "destination games" like DDR normally lower your overall revenue. If there's stiff competition in your area, lowering the price might be a way to attract more business from the hardcore players. But I've found that having the best atmosphere and the best playing machine will do more than having a cheaper price. After all, we are only talking 1 or 2 coins at most here. And with gas prices so high, I'd be driving to the closer location even if it were more expensive per game.
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Re: Arcade operators and meeting player expectations

Post by PlayerTwo » Sat May 31, 2008 11:38 pm

Aoi-chan wrote:UFO Catcher is one of the hottest new merchandisers! Mine is generally the top earner at one of my locations. Do you use the Sega plush in it too? Also, check out Super Scooper, a new Namco Japan merchandiser that uses small plush. Makes great money too.
We're using the Sega plush and the customers absolutely love it. They went nuts over the new Pooh series. I was disappointed they didn't get the new Marvel plush out in time for Ironman, though. We had really been looking forward to that.
Aoi-chan wrote:DDR in a casual enviornment does exactly as you described. Just look at your player's best list, usually the first couple songs on the song wheel are ranked near #1. Almost nobody goes for high scores on the machine with Non-stop/Oni courses, or are scores all by 1 or 2 people only. Playing Heavy usually draws a crowd at these locations and are great "show off" spots and a great way to get pictures taken of you or even video. Basically put, playing in a movie theater verses a traditional arcade is like night and day.
I genuinely hadn't considered that. I had been thinking until recently, with little else like this to do in the area, the theater location becomes the local equivalent or substitute for the traditional arcade. That's clearly not the case, though. Destination arcades clearly draw different crowds and work differently than "captive audience" locations like theaters.
Aoi-chan wrote:PIU at .75 cents is correct. Depending on the location you might get away with $1. Certain games just don't benefit from lower prices. My Dance Maniax I had a long time ago was at 2 coins per play, then dropped to 1 coin. Revenue on that game dropped by almost exactly 50%! What a shocker. Same thing happened with a Soul Calibur 2 when it was changed from 2 coins to 1. DDR or ITG at 2 coins per play is such a deal for the player and a 33% net loss to the operator :D
I had considered pursuing a Dance Maniax for smaller locations that would likely appreciate a larger game like a DDR but lack the space. Worthwhile?
Aoi-chan wrote:Lowering prices on "destination games" like DDR normally lower your overall revenue. If there's stiff competition in your area, lowering the price might be a way to attract more business from the hardcore players. But I've found that having the best atmosphere and the best playing machine will do more than having a cheaper price. After all, we are only talking 1 or 2 coins at most here. And with gas prices so high, I'd be driving to the closer location even if it were more expensive per game.
Absolutely agreed!

Kris

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