Opinions of the new DDR letter grade system

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Amp Divorax
Heavy
Heavy
Posts: 2922
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 3:34 pm
Location: Near some arcade place that has the same initials as Drum and Bass

Opinions of the new DDR letter grade system

Post by Amp Divorax » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:27 am

Ok, for the benefit of those not familar with the grading systems, here's the Supernova 1 system.

Prior Letter Grading Scale (Supernova):
Marvelous = 2 Dance Points (Essentially no effect)
Perfect = 2 Dance Points
Great = 1 Dance Point
Good and Below = no Dance Points (In MAX-Extreme Boos and Misses would subtract dance points, but that was removed in favor of increasing the percentage of dance points required to obtain letter grades.)

With that in mind, I'll say this upfront. As of Supernova 2, the first major change is that dance points are no longer used. The second major change is that not only is marvelous displayed, it now effects your grade! Finally, grading is now score based.

DDR Supernova 2 Grading Scale:
- Score goes out of 1,000,000 possible points in multiples of 10
Marvelous = 1,000,000/(number of steps + number of freezes)
Perfect = Marvelous Value - 10
Great = Marvelous Value/2 - 10
Good and lower = no points given

The major letter grades:
AAA: 990,000 points or higher
AA: 950,000 points or higher
A: 850,000 points or higher

The biggest change is that AAAs no longer require all perfects. However, if all marvelous and perfects are obtained a 'perfect full combo' message is shown. Also, getting the 'PFC' message does not require all freezes to be O.K.ed.

Personally I have mixed feelings about this. They completely dumped the old system that everybody used which really sucks, but this system actually works better for tournaments for adding new difficulty in terms of accuracy and at the same time simplifying figuring out who was the better player.
Memorable 2016 quotes:
Ho wrote:You can break arcade games and I will fix YOU!

User avatar
Ho
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 5645
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:26 am
Location: The Ho-House

Post by Ho » Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:07 am

As an freestyler, I really couldn't care less.

I think there will be a lot of resistance to the new system since it chages things that have been established for so long. But this is hardly the first time that they've changed the scoring/grading system. Heck, either the scoring, grading, or both changed between 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and MAX. So eventually people should just get over it.

Personally, I think simple is better. If determining a winner is as simple as looking to see if one person's money score is higher than the other. That's probably good. And unlike Pump, this system seems to be pretty straightforward and people shouldn't have much to complain about if they take two seconds to understand it and don't just dismiss it for being different. Unfortunately, that latter attitude is all too common.
Image

User avatar
chocobojoe
Heavy
Heavy
Posts: 2455
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 1:43 pm
Location: Fort Wayne

Post by chocobojoe » Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:16 am

I think this system is fine. Reminds me of IIDX grading system.

User avatar
Fluffyumpkins
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6592
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 1:53 pm

Post by Fluffyumpkins » Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:42 am

I think any system that weights all steps evenly works just fine. My biggest PIU gripe is that combo counts for entirely too much. Whether or not you miss a step right away or half way through a song should not affect(I think I mean affect and not effect) your score. I do think that this adds new elements to tech play.

User avatar
MonMotha
Site Code Monkey
Site Code Monkey
Posts: 2505
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:18 pm

Post by MonMotha » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:43 pm

Fluffyumpkins wrote:I think any system that weights all steps evenly works just fine. My biggest PIU gripe is that combo counts for entirely too much. Whether or not you miss a step right away or half way through a song should not affect(I think I mean affect and not effect) your score. I do think that this adds new elements to tech play.
Interestingly, this is mostly how the Zero scoring system works. The combo bonus is simply a yes/no decision based upon whether your combo is >51 or not. Thus it doesn't matter when you break combo so much as how many times you do it, and whether those times are all together or separate. NX seems to have gone back to a more Exceed 2 style system where the per-step value keeps getting bigger as your combo increases.
A normality test:
+++ATH
If you are no longer connected to the internet, you need to apply more wax to your modem: it'll make it go faster.
If you find this funny, you're a nerd.
If neither of the above apply, you are normal. Congratulations.

User avatar
Ho
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 5645
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:26 am
Location: The Ho-House

Post by Ho » Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:45 pm

Mmm...Lots of combos!
Image

User avatar
Fluffyumpkins
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6592
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 1:53 pm

Post by Fluffyumpkins » Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:32 pm

Image

10 combos!

User avatar
Ho
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 5645
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:26 am
Location: The Ho-House

Post by Ho » Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:54 pm

nom nom nom
Image

User avatar
Amp Divorax
Heavy
Heavy
Posts: 2922
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 3:34 pm
Location: Near some arcade place that has the same initials as Drum and Bass

Post by Amp Divorax » Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:44 pm

Personally I am extremely mixed on this as while the new scale is pretty sound, I have an issue with the fact that essentially every Supernova and older song that does appear in the arcade will have to be replayed from scratch for a score based on the new grading scale.
Memorable 2016 quotes:
Ho wrote:You can break arcade games and I will fix YOU!

User avatar
MonMotha
Site Code Monkey
Site Code Monkey
Posts: 2505
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:18 pm

Post by MonMotha » Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:46 pm

I think the solution to that is pretty simple. Keep entering notecounts. Assuming the timing windows are the same, you can calculate DP just the same way as people have been since MAX. You can then put your new style score in to form an additional basis for comparison (or ignore it entirely). It's still just as valid of a method for score comparison as before, the game just doesn't pay any attention to it.

If IIDX ditched Ex score, do you really think people would stop tracking their scores using that method? Probably not for a good long while...
A normality test:
+++ATH
If you are no longer connected to the internet, you need to apply more wax to your modem: it'll make it go faster.
If you find this funny, you're a nerd.
If neither of the above apply, you are normal. Congratulations.

User avatar
Amp Divorax
Heavy
Heavy
Posts: 2922
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 3:34 pm
Location: Near some arcade place that has the same initials as Drum and Bass

Post by Amp Divorax » Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:36 pm

MonMotha wrote:I think the solution to that is pretty simple. Keep entering notecounts. Assuming the timing windows are the same, you can calculate DP just the same way as people have been since MAX. You can then put your new style score in to form an additional basis for comparison (or ignore it entirely). It's still just as valid of a method for score comparison as before, the game just doesn't pay any attention to it.

If IIDX ditched Ex score, do you really think people would stop tracking their scores using that method? Probably not for a good long while...
Um, you failed to catch my point in that the implementation of Marvelous pretty much throws away past grades and also nerfs the AAA requirements. I will say though that I'm glad that they waited to bring out E-Amuse as it isn't as bad of a kick in the balls as it is to Japanese players since all their old scores are no longer valid on the system in terms of rankings.
Memorable 2016 quotes:
Ho wrote:You can break arcade games and I will fix YOU!

User avatar
MonMotha
Site Code Monkey
Site Code Monkey
Posts: 2505
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:18 pm

Post by MonMotha » Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:07 pm

No, it doesn't, unless they changed the size of "perfect". If the timing windows are the same, all perfects is still 100% DP on the old system and results in a AAA under the old system. Ignore the marvelouses completely (treat them as perfects, just like Extreme does on nonstop courses when determining your grade at the end).

Now, if you WANT to consider marvelous, you can, but really the only way you can do it (arcade) is to play oni mode and keep meticulous track of your scores on older mixes or play SN2. If you want to compare to old scores, you HAVE to use the old system. That's the way it is. The data you require to compare to new scores just doesn't exist. You don't have to throw the old scores out, you just have to compare new scores against the old criteria to see which one wins. When you do better than your old score, you enter new data, and then you have additional criteria to consider in the future. Eventually (say by the time SN4 or so comes out), most of your scores will likely have all new data and you can come up with some new system for comparison.

This only works on private score trackers (like DDRecall) where mixed criteria isn't really a big deal, but it's not like you have any "official" scores to track anyway (save the handful of peopel who may have gone to Japan, gotten a card, and played there). Memory card slots from old DDR don't port to SN, and e-amuse has never existed in the US. If you like, you can disqualify old scores (without marvelous data) from tracker-wide ranking once new-style data is entered. Again, it's not PERFECT (haha, get it? there's marvelous now, just not perfect!), but it's a fair lot better than just throwing all the old data out.

The DP system works well for tracking scores, which is why everybody uses EX score on IIDX. The pop'n score system is basically a per-note point system to begin with, so everybody just uses that. There's no reason you can't completely invent one for DDR (even if it was actually used in the past). Heck, that's what US beatmania players effectively did when they used VJ Army (courses being an exception).

Remember that DDR has never showed the raw "dance points" number to the player. Other than using internally to assign a letter grade, it's pretty much a creation of the players in terms of scoring for comparison.

This is far from the first time DDR has changed scoring systems. It's just that now everybody is all hyper-competitive due to ITG and wants to track their scores to the nearest point so they can proclaim their almightyness since they beat so-and-so by a single point. You want to really get irked about combo based scoring? Go play 4th mix. Now THAT'S combo based scoring. Puts PIU to shame. Break combo in the middle and your score will differ by more than an order of magnitude from even a mediocre full combo.

The damned point and grading systems are arbitrary in the first place, so there's no reason that you have to throw out all the old scores because the arbitrary criteria changed, especially since the same raw data is easily available to calc the same score using the same criteria.
A normality test:
+++ATH
If you are no longer connected to the internet, you need to apply more wax to your modem: it'll make it go faster.
If you find this funny, you're a nerd.
If neither of the above apply, you are normal. Congratulations.

User avatar
trythil
Standard
Standard
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 9:09 pm
Contact:

Post by trythil » Sun Dec 09, 2007 7:51 pm

You want to really get irked about combo based scoring? Go play 4th mix.
Or Elite Beat Agents.

(sorry, off topic)

User avatar
Amp Divorax
Heavy
Heavy
Posts: 2922
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 3:34 pm
Location: Near some arcade place that has the same initials as Drum and Bass

Post by Amp Divorax » Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:57 pm

Yikes, I was just stating an opinion MonMotha. You didn't have to be ludriciously longwinded or try to act like I'm a know nothing idiot. :lol:
Memorable 2016 quotes:
Ho wrote:You can break arcade games and I will fix YOU!

Post Reply