The pledge

[dancing queen iu]

just keep refusing to do it
and then be an asshole about it
and take them to court
then you'll be on all the news channels
and everyone will love you
that's the american dream

oh, and bee tee dubz...

In Canada in Aug. 2004, “CHOI FM,” Quebec City’s most popular talk show station, was dissolved by the Canadian government. Its 33 employees were put out of work. Its offense? One of its talk show hosts criticized African dictators whose children were educated in Canadian universities.
This was considered a “hate crime” against blacks.

I remember that. That was so stupid. And all they said was something about how the dictators wouldn't provide a good university in their own country so they had to send their kids elsewhere, and that made them shitty government. If it had been some dictator from...Sweden or something (theoretically, obviously) then nobody would care

ya gotta love racial sensationalism

[Queefer]

Majority is supposed to rule in a democracy, but we're not a democracy. We're a republic. Furthermore, certain aspects of the constitution forbid and/or limit the effects of certain decisions, mandates, laws and goings on in general in this country. Separation of church and state is a HUGE deal, and one that MUST be upheld. Religious control of a government and persecution of people who are different are both very, very bad things for a country, and though the 'under god' itself is small and relatively insignificant, if we let the powers that be (now right wing christians) get away with it, there will be more. I'm not so much protesting the 'under god' itself, I'm against the nature of what it stands for in a political and social sense. I don't give a damn about the pledge, I haven't said it years. What I care about is are the arrogant religious powers in this country that continue to force their own spiritual agenda onto the entire country with no consideration for any other religous, social or cultural group.
In some countries, this isn't an issue. However, America specifically stands for freedom, something most of the world does not, and we have the most diverse group of citizens in what is probably the entire history of the human race. This is not a small issue, and it's something that must be dealt with quickly, before it grows out of control, something it's already starting to do.

I actually agree with you to a certain extent. our leaders are not christian, however. they say that they are, but a true cristian would love everyone, regardless of all else. the bible states, in no uncertain terms, not to judge people for beliefs, actions, ect... one can disagree without discriminating. and we will see how God judges christian hippocrites in the end. its not supposed to be about forcing an ideal on ANYONE. this is very wrong, regardless of who or what you believe in.

[Mosh_Mosh_Revolution]

Our leaders are not christian, however. they say that they are, but a true cristian would love everyone, regardless of all else.

Some of our leaders ARE professed Christians. You have to realize, though, that in a position of power as such, they simply aren't allowed to love everybody. That would leave them a soft, vulnerable person in a place of tremendous power. Which is dangerous for a country. Therefore, Christian or not, they're doing their jobs. And I think that if you look at the Christians around you, and within yourself (assuming that you're Christian as well?), you'll find that they/you have people that they can't bring themselves to love. This is my opinion, but I don't feel as if that makes you not Christian. I just think that it makes you human.

The bible states, in no uncertain terms, not to judge people for beliefs, actions, ect... one can disagree without discriminating.

While this is true, you also have to take into account that, while the Bible clearly states that we shouldn't judge people based on their beliefs or actions, the Bible ALSO says very clearly that we should change these people and bring them to God. Which leads to the "we're right and you're wrong" problems that people are talking about.

Its not supposed to be about forcing an ideal on ANYONE. this is very wrong, regardless of who or what you believe in.

Now this is what I don't understand. People keep talking about how our ZOMG HOLY CHRISTIAN GOVERNMENT is forcing all kinds of religious things on we the people.

...Am I missing something here? I don't watch the news as often as I should. What is it that our government is forcing on us religiously that's infringing on the rights of everybody else?

[Queefer]

Our leaders are not christian, however. they say that they are, but a true cristian would love everyone, regardless of all else.

Some of our leaders ARE professed Christians. You have to realize, though, that in a position of power as such, they simply aren't allowed to love everybody. That would leave them a soft, vulnerable person in a place of tremendous power. Which is dangerous for a country. Therefore, Christian or not, they're doing their jobs. And I think that if you look at the Christians around you, and within yourself (assuming that you're Christian as well?), you'll find that they/you have people that they can't bring themselves to love. This is my opinion, but I don't feel as if that makes you not Christian. I just think that it makes you human.

The bible states, in no uncertain terms, not to judge people for beliefs, actions, ect... one can disagree without discriminating.

While this is true, you also have to take into account that, while the Bible clearly states that we shouldn't judge people based on their beliefs or actions, the Bible ALSO says very clearly that we should change these people and bring them to God. Which leads to the "we're right and you're wrong" problems that people are talking about.

Its not supposed to be about forcing an ideal on ANYONE. this is very wrong, regardless of who or what you believe in.

Now this is what I don't understand. People keep talking about how our ZOMG HOLY CHRISTIAN GOVERNMENT is forcing all kinds of religious things on we the people.

...Am I missing something here? I don't watch the news as often as I should. What is it that our government is forcing on us religiously that's infringing on the rights of everybody else?

professed christian/ not BEING christian = hippocrite = not christian

the bible dosn't say to impose beliefs on people, only to inform them and to 'lead by example' one being right and another being wrong is no excuse for imposition and prejudice

I agree that i don't see anyone FORCED to do anything, and if they feel that they are, there is a court that will settle the matter.

[Original Sin]

True christians aren't the ones I worry about, they don't complain about people different than them, nor do they try to force others to be like them. I have met very few true christians in my life....very, very few.
What we're left with in this country are fair weather christians, people who claim to be christian, who expect to reap the 'benefits' of the religion, while their true intentions are no better than your average person.

And yes, there are christian leaders attempting to force their agenda onto people. Public schools are a big topic now, especially now that, once again, they are trying to instate 'Intelligent Design,' the teaching of christian creationistic belief in science class. Creationism is NOT a scientific theory, if it belongs anywhere in school it's in history class, as a unit on culture, or in sociology. NOT science.
Then, there's the haggling over gay marriage, abortion, the 'under god' slogan, etc. Many issues are being used by politicians to gain the unwavering support of the falsified-christian masses. Apparently, choosing to persecute certain groups of people makes you coooool.

[classic candy]

The bible may say stuff about tolerance and such, but it also says thou shalt not suffer a witch to live..

[Green Tea]

not saying the pledge because of the words under god is absurd... that is not the correct way to make a stand. If you do not agree with the words under god, just don't say them. You don't need to disrespect the entire country just because you don't like two words in the pledge. Saying the pledge is affirming that you live in this country, just respect the flag and what it stands for. Whether it's under god or not doesn't matter... Just don't say under god if you don't want to.

[Mosh_Mosh_Revolution]

The bible may say stuff about tolerance and such, but it also says thou shalt not suffer a witch to live..

You'd have to be stupid to think that a compiled book of smaller texts written by many different people wouldn't contradict themselves. Especially between the new and old testiments.

How often to we contradict ourselves every single day?

The fact is that when the Bible was written, the writers couldn't just pull up all of the previous books as reference. They weren't compiled that way yet, for starters, and beyond that major problem, getting ahold of the texts for reference would be intensely difficult. But I digress.

While it was words given to the authors by God, time has taken its toll. Look at how many versions of the Bible there are. They all say the same thing. Roughly. While being compiled into books and chapters and verses, things were undoubtedly changed to fit correctly. With human error, intentionally or unintentionally, the divine word was lessened when the Bible was pulled together.

Think about people. They contradict themselves time and time again. And everyone does it. I can understand why they would want to believe in something that hasn't contradicted itself nearly as much. I can see why they would want to believe in something that they see as absolute, written by God through man.

[Original Sin]

The bible has nothing to do with politics. It should not now, and should not ever. That's a good 90% of our problem right there.
Laws are meant to be be passed for the people, for the benefit of the country as a whole. When so many people are obviously upset about something like this, maybe people in charge should take a step back and think, 'well, maybe this isn't such a good idea...'
That's what the lawmakers are there for, after all....to represent the people.
At least, that's what they're supposed to be doing.

[ShammerS]

Umm, Shammers, you are basiclly saying take anything even if you don't agree with it. That is the worst moral ive ever heard. So you shouldent stand up for what you believe in? Im saying I want to have a fucking choice, Im not trying to "go agianst the man" , Im trying to not stand and up and say stuff I dont mean nor believe in. What your saying just makes you a fuxking pushover, your basicly going through life drifting through doing whatever is told just to "get through it". Living life is about doing what you think is right and not let other people tell you how to live. Its incredibly stupid to just "go with the flow" and get it over with. Thats just stupid.

You're missing the point, my eleven-year old comic book character lookalike friend.

Let's say I whine about the pledge (much as you are currently doing) and I make a nice big fuss about it. Are people going to listen to you and care about your opinion? Sorry potterhead, that's a big fat NO.

Option B. is doing as I said; ballsing up to the pledge, complete with contradictions, and letting it slide so that you can fry bigger fish. You're fighting an uphill battle, so why not get to the top of your own life (aka get a good job, money, etc.) before complaining about something as huge as a national tradition that offends you?

Of course, I should be nulled from this argument in that literally nothing in the world offends me. Nothing. So when I see people crying about fags getting married, God being in the pledge, etc., I can't help but laugh at how emo the nation is. =)

[Mosh_Mosh_Revolution]

Laws are meant to be be passed for the people, for the benefit of the country as a whole. When so many people are obviously upset about something like this, maybe people in charge should take a step back and think, 'well, maybe this isn't such a good idea...'

Last time I checked, those that considered themselves of the Christian persuasion (lalala, Catholics, etc.) were the great majority in this country. And honestly, if you look at this stuff, you know how much worse it could be? Our lawmakers aren't enforcing laws upon us ordering us to slaughter children or sacrifice animals. They aren't even enforcing Christianity (although that's the way it might seem, considering the majority). Enforcements with some ties to Christianity? Yes. I would agree with that. But by "ties," I mean morals. Mostly basic right and wrong. Believe it or not, some people need a higher power to believe in before they can be nicer people. And hell, if that's what it takes, I'll put up with churchies all day. If they're nicer people because of it, fabulous.

That's what the lawmakers are there for, after all....to represent the people.
At least, that's what they're supposed to be doing.

In a place of diversity there's always going to be people that get shafted. That's the way things go. You can't always please everybody. And with the majority for keeping it, that leaves those opposing it...well...opposing it. n_x

[Original Sin]

So we should all just stop opposing anything that we disagree with, and let the churchies run the country however they see fit?
I think not.
One way or the other, they are gonna learn there are other people besides them in this god damned country, and that they don't all worship the devil.

[bunnydreams]

I remember back when I was in highschool they made us do that shit too or we'd get sent to the office for not saying the pledge. I remember seeing on the news that they were gonna take that part out or just have you not say it..and I was glad someone noticied how wrong that is to force someone to do something that is against their rights and beliefs.

[Potter]

Umm, Shammers, you are basiclly saying take anything even if you don't agree with it. That is the worst moral ive ever heard. So you shouldent stand up for what you believe in? Im saying I want to have a fucking choice, Im not trying to "go agianst the man" , Im trying to not stand and up and say stuff I dont mean nor believe in. What your saying just makes you a fuxking pushover, your basicly going through life drifting through doing whatever is told just to "get through it". Living life is about doing what you think is right and not let other people tell you how to live. Its incredibly stupid to just "go with the flow" and get it over with. Thats just stupid.

You're missing the point, my eleven-year old comic book character lookalike friend.

Let's say I whine about the pledge (much as you are currently doing) and I make a nice big fuss about it. Are people going to listen to you and care about your opinion? Sorry potterhead, that's a big fat NO.

Option B. is doing as I said; ballsing up to the pledge, complete with contradictions, and letting it slide so that you can fry bigger fish. You're fighting an uphill battle, so why not get to the top of your own life (aka get a good job, money, etc.) before complaining about something as huge as a national tradition that offends you?

Of course, I should be nulled from this argument in that literally nothing in the world offends me. Nothing. So when I see people crying about fags getting married, God being in the pledge, etc., I can't help but laugh at how emo the nation is. =)

GODDAMMIT POEPLE WERE ARE YOU GETTING THESE NUMBERS!!?!?!?1

I was 11 years old about 4 or 5 years ago. And When in the hell did I say I was complaining. I simply did not say the pledge, I didnt stand up and yell "OMG THIS IS SO STUPID NOBODY SAY THE PLEDGE ItS POINTLESS" No, I kept to myself, and quietly sat and did not say it. I also made this topic not to complain, but to see people thoughts on this matter. So stop pulling statements and numbers out of your ass.

[Silent_Blade]

*shrugs*

I dunno, the pledge never bothered me...I mean, it never specified "Which" God it was you were talking about, it was just god...I'm not really religious, and honestly I think it's stupid so many people make such a big deal about it. Whiney little bitches, school teaches you only one thing, and that's how to take shit and keep going. You listen to some fat old guy go on and on about crap that's really just unimportant, and will never affect you.

School's there to be completed, nothing more...Never has school been there to appease the children.