Well isn't this a huge surprise...

[Grubb]

First off, These weapons of mass distructions DON'T EXHIST! I don't care how many times the media uses "WMD" to scare people into buying newspapers.

Hiroshima / Nagasaki were newspaper scams as well? They don't really exhist?

Edit: I'm tempted to delete this, because I know you'll get all riled up about it. It's mostly just a pun on a misspelling.

To everyone : try not to get too worked up about things you can't do anything about.

Obviously, Nuclear Bombs do,

You know very well that I was talking about the "WMDs" that Iraq supposivly had, which they obviously don't.

[dancing queen iu]

Well, to me, it's obvious that they didn't have weapons of mass destruction. so quit trying to defend prezzie Bush's noble fucking cause, because there wasn't one, he just wanted to pick a fight because he probably has a small penis and wanted more power.

Bush is a douchebag and gives conservatives a bad name. End of story.

[SoDeepPolaris]

I'm just going to say that I'm prouder serving in my nation's Army, rather than bussing tables and feeling like (explitive deleted). It's true that we do more by 8:00 than most people do all day...example, we ran 6 miles and then had a 165-soldier free-for-all fight (you throw a soldier down and he's out). Anyways, I'm risking my neck so you can have the rights to dicuss politics freely, so....discuss!

Interesting, I didn't know that Iraq was oppressing my right of free speech...

...Oh wait, the only free speech supression ever held over this country was from the government itself (Sedition Acts, McCarthy, etc.).

I'm sorry, but I don't believe in this war and I don't believe that the soldiers over there are fighting for my freedoms. And don't say it's to give Iraq freedom. How about restoring their electricity and running water after we bombed their cities to hell?

[Original Sin]

I have nothing against soldiers. I almost was one myself. However, I don't agree with this war, for our sake, AND their sake.
Our freedoms are suppressed by our own government, not Iraq.
I'm more concerned about what's going on here than foreign affairs.

[Grubb]

Well, to me, it's obvious that they didn't have weapons of mass destruction. so quit trying to defend prezzie Bush's noble fucking cause, because there wasn't one, he just wanted to pick a fight because he probably has a small penis and wanted more power.

Bush is a douchebag and gives conservatives a bad name. End of story.

That's what I was saying!!!!!!!!!!!

[aspen]

A lot of the troops we have over there are just stupid kids fresh out of high school without any care for other people's culture who've been given assult rifles and command over tanks.

See, this is why I stopped reading this forum, because it's a lot of people saying something they have absolutely no idea about.

Do you have any idea of what you are saying there? Your comment is complete nonsense. I am in the Army, and with that I have a far better understanding of what we are doing, and the troops we are sending over there. Not to mention the training in urban warfare, cultural training, and many other forms of training.

First off, the majority of the troops going over there are not kids, they are young to middle aged men(and women), with families. My brother being one of them.

The rest here is directed to the whole thread...

If you don't know what you are talking about, then don't say it. The Army as a whole has a far better understanding of fighting a war than you. There are many things I don't like about being in the military, but non of them are because I don't believe in what we stand for. The Army is very good at what it does, and there is a reason for everything they do. It may not seem that way to you(all snuggled at home in your bed), but it's true. I have been on both sides of the spectrum, over seas, and snuggled at home in my bed.

Stop your bitching and complaining about who, or what we are over there for, and fucking support your troops. Don't ask questions. You wouldn't understand even if we could answer them. We have soldiers over there like myself, fighting, living in the desert, not showering for a month....for you...for this country.

I don't care if you like us being over there or not. If you're a damn American, then support your troops! Support my brother!!!

GD Idiots...

[Rusty Shackleford]

one of my friends co workers has a son over there and his unit or whatever you call it got attacked and the son lost part of his foot while the guy standing next to him died.

I know it isn't very revelant but I have friends (about 12) and family (at least 2) over there and the war hits close to home for me.

[Grubb]

A lot of the troops we have over there are just stupid kids fresh out of high school without any care for other people's culture who've been given assult rifles and command over tanks.

See, this is why I stopped reading this forum, because it's a lot of people saying something they have absolutely no idea about.

Acutally, I've been following the war as best I can. And that doesn't mean I sit infront of the TV and watch Fox News, I've been trying to found out what I can from several sources, including various websites and international newspaper. I am also a student of Sociology and Psychology, and I do what I have been trained to do; to assest the situation as best I can from a non-bias prespective, as non-bias as I can.

Do you have any idea of what you are saying there? Your comment is complete nonsense. I am in the Army, and with that I have a far better understanding of what we are doing, and the troops we are sending over there. Not to mention the training in urban warfare, cultural training, and many other forms of training.

I know lots of people in the Army. Some I have respect for, and some I don't. I'm not going to automaticly like someone just because the government gave them a uniform.

First off, the majority of the troops going over there are not kids, they are young to middle aged men(and women), with families. My brother being one of them.

I didn't say the majority of the troops where kids, and said "Lots" not "Most."

If you don't know what you are talking about, then don't say it. The Army as a whole has a far better understanding of fighting a war than you. There are many things I don't like about being in the military, but non of them are because I don't believe in what we stand for. The Army is very good at what it does, and there is a reason for everything they do. It may not seem that way to you(all snuggled at home in your bed), but it's true. I have been on both sides of the spectrum, over seas, and snuggled at home in my bed.

Stop your bitching and complaining about who, or what we are over there for, and fucking support your troops. Don't ask questions. You wouldn't understand even if we could answer them. We have soldiers over there like myself, fighting, living in the desert, not showering for a month....for you...for this country.

I had said several times in my prevous posts is that I DO support our troops and I don't see any posts where anyone disagreed with me. Yet your still upset as if someone just pissed on the American flag right infront of you.

Once agian, YES, I support the troops. And I support our troops despite the fact that you people would chastize me if I said otherwise. I support them because I choose to support them, and I know that it's a hard way of life. But that doesn't mean that I have to like the government they work for, nor do I have to respect every single person who wears a uniform, especially if they're a spoiled little brat who thinks joining the Army was be cool because he "gets to kill people... just like in the video games!"

I don't care if you like us being over there or not. If you're a damn American, then support your troops! Support my brother!!!

I do support the troops, including yourself and your brother. But that doesn't mean that I have to enjoy turning the news on every day and hearing about how yet another person got kidnapped or blown up over a stupid war that easily could have been prevented.

Now my final thought on that whole post you made is that your take it extreamly personally if someone seems to say something slightly Anti-American, so you desided to take it out of me, since I seem to be IndyDDR's offical whipping boy for some reason.

But you know what? Even though I'm extreamly ashamed to admit it, I AM an American and nothing I've said was Anti-American either. I have every right to think that the president is an evil, uneducated, warmongering barbarian, whose broken numerious international laws. And I have every right to think that going to war with Iraq as a stupid move.

But you know what else? Just because I think that going to war was stupid doesn't mean that I'm sitting here, praying to God that you and your brother gets shot full of holes. Infact, what little faith in God I have left goes out to those troops, because they need it a hell of a lot more than I do.

[dancing queen iu]

I don't really understand the whole "support the troops" thing. I mean, sure, I'd support the troops even though I don't support the war, but wouldn't I be giving to some sort of pro-war organisation?

[Grubb]

I don't really understand the whole "support the troops" thing. I mean, sure, I'd support the troops even though I don't support the war, but wouldn't I be giving to some sort of pro-war organisation?

I'm glad you brought this up.

It was originally a campaign tool created by the republican party for the 2004 election to create that exact conumdrum and a every effective one at that. Because it forces people to take a side, the obvious "Good Side" being for the troops. Basically, it boils down to a clever social control.

Here's how it work...

Obviously, going to war is going to cause people to talk about the war. The president was not getting a lot of national support for the war, and this severly hampered the Republican Party's chances of getting Bush relected. So though the use of sociologist, the republican party created a reverse psychology campaign to cause support by creating this conundrum.

The adverage American didn't like the idea for troops having to be sent off to war, especially the ones who have family and friends in the military. So, when asked if they "Support our Troops" they would say "YES". So, by presenting the public with this question in various forms of media (TV ads, Billboard, Bumper Stickers, among others) it kept that question fresh in peoples minds.

Here's where the trick comes in. The part of the question "Do you support our troops" that wasn't asked was "Do you also support the war?" This part was intentionally left unasked.

Why? Well, we have to look at the Democrat's tactics to win the 2004 presidential election. Many Democrats (and all of the Green party) were taking the anti-war side. Many TV ads run by the Democratic party were talking about the foolish actions of the President in going to war with Iraq.

Obviously, choosing between "War" and "Not War" was cause for national debate, with the Republicans with "War" and the Democrats with "Anti-War."

Essentially, people were asking each other, "Do you support the war?" Republicans usually saying "Yes" and democrats usually saying "no." Essentially, these veiwpoints canceled each other out since there is no clear "right choice" in the matter.

However, throwing "Do you support our Troops?" with it's reasonably clear answer of "Yes" into the matrix makes the "Do you support the War?" more complicated. They both blurred together.

Example: This thread began indirectly asking people "Do you support the War?" Many people, including myself, said "No." However, some of us, also including myself, didn't clearly define our point of veiw on the other question (Do you support our Troops?) blurred.

So now, some of us who said that we "Do NOT support the War" are being critisized by people who assumed that we also "Do NOT support our Troops." Which of course, is usually not the case, and I've noticed in this thread, those of us who didn't clearly define that we "DO support our Troops." were almost instantly "Flamed."

By insulting the people who said that they "Do NOT support the War" but failed to clearly state that they do support the troops would cause them to clearly state that they "DO support the Troops", the next time the questions of the War and the Troops came up.

However, by clearly defining that they "DO support the Troops" might leave to assume that they also "DO support the War." And, in doing so, people might assume that they are going to support the Republican Party.

See what happened? Essentially, by presenting people with the question "Do you support our Troops?" mixed in with the "Do you support the War?" question intentionally causes miscommunications and causes people to fear miscommunicating their answers to these questions.

Yes, I know it's a complicated process. But that's also part of the beauty of it. Because it becomes hard for many people to understand and see what's going on. Causing the "Support our Troops" campaign tactic to be a surpisingly cheap, effective, nearly indistrutable, and above all Successful campaign tactic for the Republican Party.

[dancing queen iu]

No offence Grubb, but that post went nowhere.

Anyway, I may get flamed for this (it's really nothing new for me), but if I were to support the troops with the implication that I were to support the war, then fuck the troops. They shouldn't be there anyway, they could have conscientiously objected if they were against it.

I just think there should be a "giving food to troops but not a goddamn penny to munitions and firearms proliferation" fund.

[Original Sin]

I support our troops, as I've said before.

I do NOT support our governments actions on this war.
I do not believe we should have had this war, as it should have
been finished in the original gulf war.

Aspen, you said we should all 'shut up and support our troops,' but as
citizens of the united states, it is our JOB to be opinionated on matters
such as this. If we all just sat back quietly while our government did
whatever the hell it wants to with the rest of the world, we have failed.
The very nature of democracy would have failed.
By saying what I say about this war, I am supporting our troops. I want
what's best for you guys, as well as the world, and I do not believe this war fits either of them. I refuse to sit on my ass quietly and watch our soliders, many of whom I know, get slaughtered over oil, and world power. Sure, Saddam was an ass, but there are far worse than him in the world. We only 'freed' Iraq because it was convenient for those in power. It's a corrupt war under a guise of righteousness, and that's what bothers me the most. Especially when there are other ways to go about solving our own problems, like eliminating the need for mass amounts of fossil fuels to begin with. We can't do that, because it's not convenient for the oil companies.
Guess what Bush's family business is?
We could easily do away with the need for huge amounts of crude oil, but we don't. We could do what's right, but we don't. We could do a lot of good for the world, but we just don't fucking do it.
Sure, it's nice seeing Iraqi's free from Saddam, that's great. But that's not why we're there. The government pretends to care about these people, but in the end, they're just convenient. They make US look good when they smile, and then when it's aired on the news, the ignorant masses stop questioning our warmongering leader.

Our job as citizens, as voters, and as human fucking beings is to know, to understand, and speak out about what's going on.
This 'sit down, shut up and support the war' bullshit isn't gonna fly. That's a pathetic way to run a country, and one that's spelled the end for plenty in the past. We've all seen where Nationalism leads, open a history book. It's pretty obvious.
I support our soldiers, and I want them returned safe. I do not, and will not support this war, or any other that may come after this for power, money, oil, or whatever the fuck it is they want next.
We can't wipe terrorists off the planet anyway. This 'war on terror' is senseless. We're going to war with an idea, not something we can actually destroy.

[sam]

yay great posts!

everyone's said everything...i'd type how i feel but i'm coming on with a case of vertigo (i fall over when i walk ) and am being forced to work on the computer. (FUCKING OSHA ON THIS SHIT)

what i do want to say is though, what will be next? i'm waiting for the war against piracy. (I'm talkin like huge...bigger than any FBI bust)

[malictus]

Aspen, I was in complete agreement with your post there... up to a point. I do honestly believe that MOST of the people in the armed forces are not there to 'shoot the bad guys and blow stuff up'.

But please please don't say 'Stop your bitching and complaining' & 'Don't Ask Questions'. It's my DUTY as an American to ask questions and voice dissent.

[dancing queen iu]

Goddamnit, I've said it before and I'll say it again: Canada really is so much better than America.