The Great Music Game Music Debate

[Fluffyumpkins]

Kyle Ward sucks?

What piece of audio do you actually like on the game then?

Little Kitty Mine?

Hmmm, there are a fews songs I find alright, but as a whole, nothing by KaW is fantastic. In my opinion, most of it is rather bland. This is just a personal preference.

[hascoolnickname]

Also, you have to understand, when I say things like "EXTREMELY gay music" or "Very racist song titles", i'm exaggerating facts that are already there, to give them more emphasis. The facts are still there, and I say them in the sentences.

You said the songs, not the titles, sounded racist as hell. I have yet to perceive that while playing any of the songs in the game. I have also missed the "fact" that some of the music is "gay." Could you point out these "facts" I'm obviously missing?

For example, you can't be telling me that Hip Hop Jam doesn't sound like it was made for Kidz Bop or overall is just an extremely kiddy-sounding song like it would be at a birthday party or something. That's basically fact, and I used the fact that it was "extremely gay" to emphasize that.

If this is what you meant by "extremely gay," that's just verbicide and does even less to gain respect or any positive standing in a debate.

Basically, take a person like Steven Colbert or Keith Olbermann, something alone those lines, how they exaggerate fact by getting into it, but the fact is still there.

There is a lot that can be said about these satiracal shows as well, but I won't get into that at the moment. If you'd like to start a thread to discuss those go ahead.

And as i've said before, I hate no one on these boards; nor have I ever gotten actually, seriously, "omfg" angry over something on an internet debate. I just like to debate, basically, and most people take that as an attack, which it's not.

Good, I'm pleased to see that. People seem to forget they're on the internet discussing rhythm games.

And yes, genres are not fact. According to the description you gave some pretty well known examples of respected techno artists would be: Grandmaster Flash, 2 Live Crew, Biz Markie, Public Enemy, Wu-Tang, 2pac, Notorious B.I.G, Nas, correct? I mean all these guys didn't use "real instruments" right? Man, I love techno!

[elcuebee]

You said the songs, not the titles, sounded racist as hell. I have yet to perceive that while playing any of the songs in the game. I have also missed the "fact" that some of the music is "gay." Could you point out these "facts" I'm obviously missing?

Uh, I thought it was blatantly obvious that i was talking about the titles being racist, seeing as I said "Hey, we should make a song called "Black Attack"".

Again, calling the song "gay" is a way to exaggerate the actual fact. It is not literally homosexual, but you really can't deny the fact that Hip Hop Jam sounds EXACTLY like something from a children's album or sesame street or Kidz Bop.

If this is what you meant by "extremely gay," that's just verbicide and does even less to gain respect or any positive standing in a debate.

Again, I was exaggerating the fact, hoping that people could see the fact for what it was, and that the exaggeration was just for humor. I guess not.

Good, I'm pleased to see that. People seem to forget they're on the internet discussing rhythm games.

Luckily, I feel I can do this here because this isn't a California based board at all. I do this on any other board (besides AIJ.com mainly) and people go absolutely buckwild/apeshit.

And yes, genres are not fact. According to the description you gave some pretty well known examples of respected techno artists would be: Grandmaster Flash, 2 Live Crew, Biz Markie, Public Enemy, Wu-Tang, 2pac, Notorious B.I.G, Nas, correct? I mean all these guys didn't use "real instruments" right? Man, I love techno!

Technically, correct. Again, a lot of my statements are things that you have to "read between the lines"; yes, going by pure statement, my statement would indicate those are "techno".

But you have to also realize the genre seperation, and you could also note that while most, if not ALL the beats rap songs are easily possible in real life on a drumset (the melody), most, if not ALL techno/electronica/house songs would be nearly impossible to pull off by a single person on a drumset due to lack of stamina, speed, or so on.

That would be an easy way to seperate them. I mean come on, you have to realize and just admit that ITG1/2 are mostly electronica/techno/house/D&B music, whether you say it's opinion or not, it's blatant fact right in front of your face. There's really no denying it.

[danc1005]

First off, let me get to the long-forgotten topic and say hey Andrew, and I'm glad you joined.

Secondly, I would like to state that I enjoy both DDR and ITG (music-wise and playing-wise).

However, from what I've been exposed to (mostly Extreme, some Supernova, and some 5th-7th mix) of DDR, I would have to say that ITG has more variety. It seems to me that whenever DDR (at least in more recent mixes; again, I have no experience with pre-5th mix) tries to go out of their tried-and-true J-Pop, you get some crap like Love This Feelin' or Daikenkai.
And, I'm sorry, but saying that some music has more merits over other music simply because it could've been played by real instruments (which is essentially what you're saying, DBV) is purely ridiculous. Personally, I believe that the concept, planning, production, etc. of a song is much more important than how the sounds in said song were produced. Just because a lot (not all) of the music in ITG was made synthetically does not mean it is less original, or, overall, worse (a very opinionated word to use, but nonetheless...).

[Cbav]

wtf is Black Attack, lmao

Yeah... I still think ITG's music is better. Even if they weren't created by a real band, but a guy sitting at his computer pumping out beats.
But you know, that guy pumping out beats sounds a hell of a lot more catchy than a 7 year-old girl singing high pitched nonsense. (i dunno though, you might thoroughly enjoy that stuff)

[Pheonixguy]

haha, i always hate the debates over which games music is better...


ill just say i dont like any games (ddr, pump, itg, ect.) over another and its always really refreshing to hear a different kind of music after whoring a music game.

ddr has its j-pop, itg its techno (lol at the rap being techno), and pump with its... err... classical remixes and k-pop.

NOW EVERYBODY JUST SHUT THE FUCK UP

[elcuebee]

However, from what I've been exposed to (mostly Extreme, some Supernova, and some 5th-7th mix) of DDR, I would have to say that ITG has more variety. It seems to me that whenever DDR (at least in more recent mixes; again, I have no experience with pre-5th mix) tries to go out of their tried-and-true J-Pop, you get some crap like Love This Feelin' or Daikenkai.

Then you really shouldn't be commenting on it if you haven't played it. If you don't know the music genres in those previous mixes, which was basically an entirely different selection, then... yeahhhh

Just because a lot (not all) of the music in ITG was made synthetically does not mean it is less original, or, overall, worse (a very opinionated word to use, but nonetheless...).

Go get a snare on a drumset. How many ways can you hit that? At a basic level, there are 8+ areas to hit a basic snare on a drumset. Each of these produce a SLIGHTLY different sound. Now crank the nuts on the snare up some. You now have 8 new sounds. When you hit the snare, if you're in a room that echos, you'll get a slightly different sound than you would if you were outside, or in a church hall, or in a bathroom.

Synthetic music can only "emulate" so much of real-world sounds. And the fact is, most of the music in ITG *IS* similar.

Here's how most of the music in ITG breaks down;

-get a solid 4/4 bass drum sound in the back, going at 1 or 2 hits per four "notes" so to speak (so basically 4ths or 8ths).

-get some background, "flowing" sound (like a violin, synthetic or organ type sound) that accompanies the music (in some songs)

-get a foreground sound (like a piano, or snare hit) that is generally the same repeated rhythm over and over, even if it's a long rhythm, it's generally repeated. (Pretty much all Kyle Ward stuff)

-keep this formula up for the beginning and end of the song

-during the middle, switch the foreground rhythm up, add in one or so more instruments like a saxophone, guitars, "ethnic" instruments, remove one instrument if needed, set the bass drum beat to double time or half time depending on song.

-add vocals if needed.

This is literally how almost every single song in ITG is. Basic, bland, and cookie-cutter.

As a side note, as i've made it quite clear before, I dislike J-pop. I also dislike almost ALL J-metal/rock, with three or four exceptions.

I listen to a wide range of music, but the predominant genres by far that I like are death/black/heavy metal, alternative, jazz, speedcore, math rock, breakcore, and instrumental/ambient.

Simply put, for the most part, while there are some exceptions, I hate music like the kind I just described above in that little ITG music tutorial. This is also why I hate rap; the beats are simplistic, boring, and wayyyy too slow-paced. I need complex, interesting, non-repetitive beats/melodies/rhythms in my songs.

Again, if you think ITG music is better, that's fine, I have nothing against that.

But, if you think it's not all similar, you really need to get your ears checked, ESPECIALLY if you think DDR 3rd mix/4th mix + has LESS selection of genres/variety of music than ITG1/2.

[Cbav]

play moar itg

[elcuebee]

play moar itg

So i'll enjoy a song more if I play it more? That sure makes sense. /sarcasm

ITG stuff is too bland musically, i'll stay on my stepmania w/4,000 songs and blueshark pad, with a much wider variety of music, instead

[hascoolnickname]

This thread = Posts so contradictory its not even funny

[elcuebee]

This thread = Posts so contradictory its not even funny

so why not point them out? I like debates, I want you to point out where people have contradicted themselves (including me if I have, but I really don't see where)

[hascoolnickname]

You said the songs, not the titles, sounded racist as hell. I have yet to perceive that while playing any of the songs in the game. I have also missed the "fact" that some of the music is "gay." Could you point out these "facts" I'm obviously missing?

Uh, I thought it was blatantly obvious that i was talking about the titles being racist, seeing as I said "Hey, we should make a song called "Black Attack"".

---Some weird ethnic shit that basically sounds racist as hell

Nothing about titles, you brought that up later when you were trying to bash electronic music and the use of fruityloops (which is somehow bad?)

Again, calling the song "gay" is a way to exaggerate the actual fact. It is not literally homosexual, but you really can't deny the fact that Hip Hop Jam sounds EXACTLY like something from a children's album or sesame street or Kidz Bop.

If this is what you meant by "extremely gay," that's just verbicide and does even less to gain respect or any positive standing in a debate.

Again, I was exaggerating the fact, hoping that people could see the fact for what it was, and that the exaggeration was just for humor. I guess not.

The idea that it might sound like a Kidz Bop in no way relates to your use of the word. You're calling it "gay" as if being so is a bad thing, you're attaching negative connotations to a neutral word and in doing so also attacking anyone who agrees with that lifestyle. That's not an intelligent mature way of presenting your side in a debate, and I wouldn't have to call anyone out on it if people weren't making claims that aren't true.

Good, I'm pleased to see that. People seem to forget they're on the internet discussing rhythm games.

Luckily, I feel I can do this here because this isn't a California based board at all. I do this on any other board (besides AIJ.com mainly) and people go absolutely buckwild/apeshit.

Understandable.

And yes, genres are not fact. According to the description you gave some pretty well known examples of respected techno artists would be: Grandmaster Flash, 2 Live Crew, Biz Markie, Public Enemy, Wu-Tang, 2pac, Notorious B.I.G, Nas, correct? I mean all these guys didn't use "real instruments" right? Man, I love techno!

Technically, correct. Again, a lot of my statements are things that you have to "read between the lines"; yes, going by pure statement, my statement would indicate those are "techno".

But you have to also realize the genre seperation, and you could also note that while most, if not ALL the beats rap songs are easily possible in real life on a drumset (the melody), most, if not ALL techno/electronica/house songs would be nearly impossible to pull off by a single person on a drumset due to lack of stamina, speed, or so on.

There's a lot that can be said about this, but when you have a genre that originated with DJ's spinnin breakbeats on their decks while the MC's laid down their rhymes at parties, of course it can be played back on a drum kit when it was played on a drum kit. On the real my favorite hiphop artists have a real oldschool sound or use a LOT of instruments. If you've ever seen someone play an mpc like nobody's business or cut up a sample like bread you'd know there actually are a lot of people out there putting more heart into their work than some mainstream artists. In fact, hiphop is great in the way that if you got something to say you can say it. It's not that hard to lay down a simple beat, but if you got something fresh people will definitely turn their ears to hear it.
A lot of people do instrumental "techno" style music. About two seconds on youtube and you'll find a lot of people who can play a variety of traditionally electronic styles of music on traditionally acoustic instruments.

That would be an easy way to seperate them. I mean come on, you have to realize and just admit that ITG1/2 are mostly electronica/techno/house/D&B music, whether you say it's opinion or not, it's blatant fact right in front of your face. There's really no denying it.

There's your contradiction right there, need I say more?

Just because a lot (not all) of the music in ITG was made synthetically does not mean it is less original, or, overall, worse (a very opinionated word to use, but nonetheless...).

Go get a snare on a drumset. How many ways can you hit that? At a basic level, there are 8+ areas to hit a basic snare on a drumset. Each of these produce a SLIGHTLY different sound. Now crank the nuts on the snare up some. You now have 8 new sounds. When you hit the snare, if you're in a room that echos, you'll get a slightly different sound than you would if you were outside, or in a church hall, or in a bathroom.

Synthetic music can only "emulate" so much of real-world sounds. And the fact is, most of the music in ITG *IS* similar.

Sure, it can only "emulate" real world sounds before real world sounds have to try to "emulate" so called "synthetic music" and then run to catch up on the vast range of sounds that it simply cannot create. A single drum can only produce so many sounds while in a virtual environment limitless sounds can branch out from just one second of one hit on that drum. Anything is possible.

Here's how most of the music in ITG breaks down;

-get a solid 4/4 bass drum sound in the back, going at 1 or 2 hits per four "notes" so to speak (so basically 4ths or 8ths).

-get some background, "flowing" sound (like a violin, synthetic or organ type sound) that accompanies the music (in some songs)

-get a foreground sound (like a piano, or snare hit) that is generally the same repeated rhythm over and over, even if it's a long rhythm, it's generally repeated. (Pretty much all Kyle Ward stuff)

-keep this formula up for the beginning and end of the song

-during the middle, switch the foreground rhythm up, add in one or so more instruments like a saxophone, guitars, "ethnic" instruments, remove one instrument if needed, set the bass drum beat to double time or half time depending on song.

-add vocals if needed.

This is literally how almost every single song in ITG is. Basic, bland, and cookie-cutter.

As a side note, as i've made it quite clear before, I dislike J-pop. I also dislike almost ALL J-metal/rock, with three or four exceptions.

I listen to a wide range of music, but the predominant genres by far that I like are death/black/heavy metal, alternative, jazz, speedcore, math rock, breakcore, and instrumental/ambient.

Simply put, for the most part, while there are some exceptions, I hate music like the kind I just described above in that little ITG music tutorial. This is also why I hate rap; the beats are simplistic, boring, and wayyyy too slow-paced. I need complex, interesting, non-repetitive beats/melodies/rhythms in my songs.

Again, if you think ITG music is better, that's fine, I have nothing against that.

But, if you think it's not all similar, you really need to get your ears checked, ESPECIALLY if you think DDR 3rd mix/4th mix + has LESS selection of genres/variety of music than ITG1/2.

If you were so musically adept and open minded I don't see how you could not like hiphop or rap. I also don't follow your logic with not liking the so called simplistic boring wayyyy too slow-paced music if you like ambient music? That's a bit contradictory, could you elaborate? Also, listening to most of the music you have listed above I'm surprised that you can claim you don't like music that all sounds the same or doesn't have much variance. I'm not going to rip on any artists you hold high and mighty, but most of them, in my eyes, are pretty generic in their various subgenres or from album to album and song to song. Formula writing has been around since classical music, and it's been proven time and time again that it works. Don't be so surprised to hear a song that sounds like another, it's what sells.
I'm not surprised that there is more variation in DDR over all the mixes than ITG, when you're in the game longer you see what works and what doesn't. When you can't get many artists to do original songs without licensing of course an artist has a style that can be seen throughout their work. Of course ITG is going to be nowhere near as varied as your stepmania files, that's no contest. I'll agree with you DDR as a whole has a lot more variation compared to ITG.

[elcuebee]

Nothing about titles, you brought that up later when you were trying to bash electronic music and the use of fruityloops (which is somehow bad?)

Dude. I'm sorry to tell you, but I was talking about *THE TITLE*. Nothing in the song itself is racist, maybe it was vague to you then, but i'm making it clear now that I was saying that it was about titles.

How does that tie into "electronic music" and fruity loops whatsoever? That doesn't tie into either of those subjects, nor did i relate it to either one. I was simply saying the song titles were racist, and the songs were bland.

Yes, I was saying as a blanket statement that most of the stuff in the game sounded like it was made on fruity loops, but I wasn't using the racist titles to SUPPORT that debate.

The idea that it might sound like a Kidz Bop in no way relates to your use of the word. You're calling it "gay" as if being so is a bad thing, you're attaching negative connotations to a neutral word and in doing so also attacking anyone who agrees with that lifestyle. That's not an intelligent mature way of presenting your side in a debate, and I wouldn't have to call anyone out on it if people weren't making claims that aren't true.

HAHAHAHAAHAHHA

i have to say, this is by far the most incorrect statement ever.

Think about this; I live in California, near the bay area. I have somewhere around 20-30 gay, lesbian, and bi friends EACH. I used to ROOM with three gay guys. Around here, calling someone gay isn't an insult, nor is it seen as negative, if in the right context.

When I say gay, i'm using it in the "this sounds fruity" context, not "this sounds like something that is homosexual in orientation". I have nothing against gay people whatsoever, I don't see it as strange, and when I use the word it's used as a general "this sounds fruity" connotation, not "homosexual" connotation.

Same as when I say someone's a fuckhead, do I think they have a penis for a head? no.

There's a lot that can be said about this, but when you have a genre that originated with DJ's spinnin breakbeats on their decks while the MC's laid down their rhymes at parties, of course it can be played back on a drum kit when it was played on a drum kit. On the real my favorite hiphop artists have a real oldschool sound or use a LOT of instruments. If you've ever seen someone play an mpc like nobody's business or cut up a sample like bread you'd know there actually are a lot of people out there putting more heart into their work than some mainstream artists. In fact, hiphop is great in the way that if you got something to say you can say it. It's not that hard to lay down a simple beat, but if you got something fresh people will definitely turn their ears to hear it.

Right, and when I say rap remember, i'm talking about "nigga what nigga who fuck niggas eat bread give head you dead nigga pull da trigga".

There's a lot of hip hop, not rap, that is very good and I listen to as well, and hip-hop is much more varied. Also, I find that most hip hop rhymes are more about talking on a subject, instead of trying to make oneself look pitied or hard or amazing or whatever.

A lot of people do instrumental "techno" style music. About two seconds on youtube and you'll find a lot of people who can play a variety of traditionally electronic styles of music on traditionally acoustic instruments.

True, but i'm talking about stuff like sandstorm and crap, the generic techno crap. (ITG1/2 basically) I listen to Mogwai and such, so I know what you mean, but yeah.

There's your contradiction right there, need I say more?

Yeah, since i see no way how that was a contradiction. I still stand by the fact that ITG1/2 is mostly music made by one person per song electronically, and that DDR 3rd mix+/4th mix + is mostly music made by full bands, or at least more than one person, compared to ITG1/2.

Sure, it can only "emulate" real world sounds before real world sounds have to try to "emulate" so called "synthetic music" and then run to catch up on the vast range of sounds that it simply cannot create. A single drum can only produce so many sounds while in a virtual environment limitless sounds can branch out from just one second of one hit on that drum. Anything is possible.

True; so how come almost no one who makes synthetic or electronica music abuses that? The only person I can think of in electronica who abuses that is Aphex Twin, off the top of my head, in terms of bizarre sounds, and odd melodies and such.

If you were so musically adept and open minded I don't see how you could not like hiphop or rap.

As I said above, I listen to quite a lot of hip-hop, and again as i've said in many other posts, including the "Rap" topic, I like hip-hop. I even listed in posts that I like Del Tha Funky Homosapien. Does anyone around here research people when they're making personal accusations of them?

I also don't follow your logic with not liking the so called simplistic boring wayyyy too slow-paced music if you like ambient music?

Ambient music i'll admit is the one exception. To me however, this is still not "slow" paced; to me, it's *slower* than slow paced, to the point of being basically "ambient, mood music". What irks me is music that's slow (Moby), but not so slow that you hardly notice there's even music at all, and it just sounds like ambient noise, if you get what I mean by that. I'll admit I wasn't too clear on that.

Also, listening to most of the music you have listed above I'm surprised that you can claim you don't like music that all sounds the same or doesn't have much variance. I'm not going to rip on any artists you hold high and mighty, but most of them, in my eyes, are pretty generic in their various subgenres or from album to album and song to song.

Curious how you knew what artists I liked? One of the first things I always hear that's off the charts incorrect is that "All metal is undechipherable screaming". I can show you at least 200 songs off my playlist, and at least 20 bands I listen to that are metal that yes, may have screaming, but it's easily able to be deciphered and heard.

Formula writing has been around since classical music, and it's been proven time and time again that it works. Don't be so surprised to hear a song that sounds like another, it's what sells.

Of course it sells, and that's great. Doesn't mean it's good. 95% of Americans/people world wide are sheep, and will listen to something because it's popular; this is the reason that rap and pop are as popular as they are. Also because most people don't like to use much brain function when they listen to music, so the simplistic lyrics and beats of rap and pop are easy to synch with, because they're so basic.

I'm not surprised that there is more variation in DDR over all the mixes than ITG, when you're in the game longer you see what works and what doesn't.

This is backwards; DDR had far more variety in 3rd mix + and 4th mix + than it did in any other mix afterwards.

[Potter]

True; so how come almost no one who makes synthetic or electronica music abuses that? The only person I can think of in electronica who abuses that is Aphex Twin, off the top of my head, in terms of bizarre sounds, and odd melodies and such.

Then you obviously have not ventured into electronic music whatsoever. I could easily make a list of 30 some artists, hell ,30 subgenres of electronic that push far, far, far beyond traditional sounds, traditional melodies, traditional composition.

it's now pretty easy to see your opinion on music shouldn't be held in any regard

[elcuebee]

True; so how come almost no one who makes synthetic or electronica music abuses that? The only person I can think of in electronica who abuses that is Aphex Twin, off the top of my head, in terms of bizarre sounds, and odd melodies and such.

Then you obviously have not ventured into electronic music whatsoever. I could easily make a list of 30 some artists, hell ,30 subgenres of electronic that push far, far, far beyond traditional sounds, traditional melodies, traditional composition.

it's now pretty easy to see your opinion on music shouldn't be held in any regard

I said pretty much no one. 30 subgenres? really, please do name them off. 30 artists is hardly anyone. When I say "how come they don't abuse it", i mean within the genre of electronic music. If you're telling me that within electronic music alone, there are 30 subgenres that go past the normal electronica sounds somehow, i would really, really like to know about these.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_el ... sic_genres There's around 100 subgenres here. Having 1/3rd of your subgenres in a genre pushing past everything means that some similarity is giong to be there.

Again, I never said "there is no one". I said most. There's also a fine balance between "being unique/creative/breaking standards" and "garbage". I've listened to a lot of bands and some manage to balance on that line, others fall into the garbage area.

And who was talking about musical elitism here? Your claim you just made is far more elitist, saying that because I don't know as many bands as you, my opinion in music should not be held in any regard.

That, or my taste in music is a lot more critical and strict than yours, as after listening to some stuff like mogwai (which I know I bring up a lot), I don't really see how things could get more non-traditional or more odd than most of thier stuff, and it's not even electronica.