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Posted: **Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:28 am**

Potter wrote:<whining, insults, just plain misinformation and some hopefully joking threats>

Wow. Kiddo... when you wake up and realize that not everyone shares your ignorance (or your need to feel cool by babbling about drugs, or your other limitations, etc., etc.), you let me know, 'k? In the meantime, I think Dan's got the right idea about this line of discussion...

Random thought for me: what is it with all these people on eBay who sell music games and one other type of thing that's completely unrelated? For example, check out the GitaDora and Yarn merchant, or the Bemani Bundler/women's clothing guy. The mind boggles.

Posted: **Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:33 am**

no arka, im tired of you trying to spread your misinformed, assumed, asexual girl thoughts on here. No you cant enduce those kind of effects. Its not humanly possible to make your brain secrete the chemical it needs, etc.

Find me one link, article, etc, where someone succesufully induced these kind of effects without any mind altering substances, any other outer factos. Its not possible arka, you just try to act liek theres always a better way for everything. Im sorry people take those drugs for a reason. theres no other way to be in that state of mind.

and ignorance? wtf are you talking about. your the one saying that you can make yourself hallucinate when ever you feel liek and amazingly secrete the chemicals you need to alter you state of mind. Either find a credible source to prove me wrong, or stop talking.

Posted: **Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:44 am**

Two words for you Potter:
LUCID DREAMING

Posted: **Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:53 am**

2 words, duh, happened to me twice in one night a couple weeks ago. Im talkign about while being concious. silly man wearing not that of a man suit

Posted: **Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:08 am**

Original Sin wrote: For the record, I don't partake of anything but Absinthe, and even that is very rarely. However, what people do with their own lives is their business, and so long as they don't infringe upon my life, it shall remain so. It's not my place, your place, or anyone's for that matter, to pass judgement off on someone's private life unless it directly effects you.
Your casual user of certain drugs is not a detriment to society.
Now, junkies who steal/kill/rape etc for more crack...yes, that is a problem, but it only represents a small percentage of substance users.

Over time you will poison yourself from absinthe, so moderation is definitely a must. Otherwise I agree with most of what you said.

Arka wrote:I've never used mind-altering substances (with the exception of the huge gobs of caffeine I've doubtless consumed in my day-to-day life). They're really not for me. And they DO have nasty side effects. You can argue that they won't happen to me if I'm exceedingly careful, and have no pre-existing conditions (including those I don't know about), and this and that and the other thing... but even if you're correct that there's some way to eliminate risk / reduce it to a trivial level, why bother? What do I gain from them?

The answer for the vast majority of drug users is social. It's either "I want to be a rebel!" (in the case of illegal drugs), "I want to be cool!" (in the case of most anything), or "I don't want to deal with the stigma of being a teetotaller!" (in the case of alcohol). Sometimes it's just "I'm too lazy to do it that way, even if it means risking my health!" Sorry, but these people ARE losers.

Sure, there are a few people who use drugs out of a sense of curiosity or something else. Most of the users I know don't. The kid down the street who got MIRSA from shooting up started doing it because all his friends did. The girl who dropped out of the local college because she had to be sober to attend classes started drinking because "if you're at a party, you've just gotta drink." Why do you think we're stuck with all these dumbass radio commercials focusing on convincing kids that conformity isn't a sufficient need to do drugs?

Side-note: I'm with OS that we'd be much better off if virtually all these substances were legalized. People would no longer delude themselves into thinking they're being rebellious by taking hits. And they would now be more likely to be distributed by people who actually cared about their customers' well-being, and would try to cut them off if they were sufficiently trashed. (Bartenders are supposed to do this with alcohol nowadays, for all the good it doesn't do.)

I'm going to have to agree with potter on this one, there is no way to acieve the heightened states of consciousness/altered states of reality without controlled substances. I can see how some drugs are social (mdma, cannabis, alcohol, tobacco) but others such as heroine, crack, or meth I don't really see where you can be doing it for a social reason. Unless you want to shank your friends for money afterwards.
Legalizing hard drugs is about the dumbest idea I have ever heard. Maybe you could try to control the crime rate that would be a result of the access to these drugs by having them easily accessable and cheap, but thats just a vicious cycle that would eventually leave most cities dead.

malictus wrote:Two words for you Potter:
LUCID DREAMING

Yeah, you'd definitely be conscious during that...

Might I add that I do not believe in any way that marijuana is a gateway drug. If you're going to do hard drugs, you're going to do them no matter what. If people lack self control and discipline it's completely their fault.
I dont drink and I haven't smoked pot, but I like to know what one would be getting into before they do anything. I believe there's a time and place for everything, and if you don't be cautious- sure, you're gonna get fucked up bad. Everyone reacts to stuff differently, so one person's trip definitely doesn't mean there's a safe assurance that you're going to have a good time.

Posted: **Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:12 am**

Potter, I think you're missing my point; you asked for 'proof' of a way to induce hallucinogen-like effects without drugs, and lucid dreams are exactly that. I admit it takes a lot of practice, but it's incredible when it works (I'm talking about CONSCIOUSLY controlling your dreams, not just dream awareness), and it's 100% safe with no chance of flashbacks, getting arrested, or going insane.

EDIT: Obviously as someone who's never used a hallucinogenic drug, I can't say from first hand experience that lucid dreaming is similar. But I do think science is behind my claim, since LSD simulates a 'waking dream' state chemically. I'd look up a link or something but I'm too lazy...

Posted: **Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:18 am**

yes, but your lying down, thechnicly asleep. im talking about being active, moving around, and being able to go get friends, move around etc without waking up and ruining the dream. silly man wearing that of the chosen one.

Posted: **Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:19 am**

Drugs ruined electronic music as a genre to be taken seriously. House, 2-step, DnB, Electro, Trance, Breaks, ect. have all been lumped with happy-crapcore and pill munchers only enjoy EDM for the ease of wasting away on drugs. Honestly I'd like to go to a 'party' without Kandi-Kids and their glowsticks and XS rainbow bright shirts. I really wish there were more respectable, or at least tolerable, clubs that played this kind of stuff. Other countries just don't look at 'rave music' the same way we do.

Posted: **Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:41 am**

Potter, don't you get bored of this kind of thing? Where's the law that says all of your posts have to be ignorant drek focussed on trying (and failing) to start flame wars?

I'll make a semblance of a reply in the spirit of compassion, but this is the last one. Onward:

Potter wrote:no arka, im tired of you trying to spread your misinformed, assumed, asexual girl thoughts on here. No you cant enduce those kind of effects. Its not humanly possible to make your brain secrete the chemical it needs, etc.

Misinformed? Says the guy who says I'm an asexual because I don't want to get hit on by every nerd boy who crosses my path.

I love the phrase "girl thoughts," though. Eeeeewww! Cooties!!

If you really want to learn something, drop the dogma and Google these terms: lucid dreaming. At-will hallucination. Neurobiology of trance. Voluntary altered state. Skip over the obvious kooks (yes, there are plenty, as for any other medical subject) and read about why skeptics attribute most reports of ghost sightings and paranormal experiences to self-induced hallucinations and related neurological phenomena. And please don't come crying back to me that you don't know which ones to read or you can't find the good ones; there comes a time in every person's life when he or she must learn to engage in something we call "critical thought."

And if you have any time left over, go read a grade-school biology or (less likely) psychology text, and learn about why the human brain is more complicated than "this chemical <=> this effect, this other chemical <=> this other effect."

Happy learning.

Fluffyumpkins wrote:I really wish there were more respectable, or at least tolerable, clubs that played this kind of stuff.

YES! I've never visited a club that had both coherent music and coherent people, and I really wish I could.

Posted: **Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:44 am**

drugs did not destroy electronic music, electronic music destroyed itself.

people tote electronica as 'modern classical' music yet if you listen to it, what is so symphonic about it? There's a melody carried across a few loops and a basic beat that is built up and broke down repeatedly. A new genre of electronica is anything that sounds just a shred different from the previous year's hot shit.

as for ways to induce the mind-states brought on by various drugs, meditation is extremely popular. when done properly you can make yourself have enlightening experiences. here's a link to a experience report from a person who did one of the more-dangerous practices:
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=37501

and like i said earlier, drugs are not stupid, it's people without resolve or will power.

Posted: **Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:00 pm**

That sort of mind-numbing style never stopped night clubs all across the nation from playing Little John and Shakira. I agree that electronic music isn't a rebirth of the music industry, but neither is Jazz, Folk, Hard Rock, Rap, or even Ska.

Oh yeah.

Did you know Riot is this guy?

Posted: **Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:10 pm**

Potter wrote:oh, no dude, when you werent here she said she was mature enough to date a 17 year old for about 7 pages. obviously that was false but this is just proving that.

Come to my world where the legal age of consent is 14. It almost got changed earlier this year, but it remains. Reason #1,000,000 Canada rocks.

P.S. Europe's not much better than here. You can get good pills for $6-10. Drugs haven't ruined EDM, it's just a niche genre. Fuck the whole club scene, I like my music in some huge basement under an apartment building or in a warehouse rented by someone that's in the know with the owner. Clubs just result in fights and idiotic drunk people, two things that go hand in hand.

Posted: **Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:11 pm**

Arka wrote: The answer for the vast majority of drug users is social. It's either "I want to be a rebel!" (in the case of illegal drugs), "I want to be cool!" (in the case of most anything), or "I don't want to deal with the stigma of being a teetotaller!" (in the case of alcohol). Sometimes it's just "I'm too lazy to do it that way, even if it means risking my health!" Sorry, but these people ARE losers.

There are a vast number of spiritual reasons to use certain substances. Absinthe, chartreuse, and other substances with hallucinogenic properties have been widely used for occult or religious reasons for a very long time, as they induce an altered state of awareness, allowing the user to focus less on the physical world, and more on the world beyond. Certain kinds of these substances can even lessen the addictive effects of other drugs, such as cocaine and heroine, and are naturally occuring in nature.

As far as willing oneself into an altered state, it is somewhat possible, depending on a shit load of factors. You can do any number of things with your own mind and body, chemicals or no chemicals. I've been putting myself into altered states since I was a child with no help from outside substances, primarily for meditation, dream walking and OBE related shit.
However, if you believe you cannot alter your own perception without chemicals, then you never will. Your perception of reality is often dependent on your knowledge of it. If you don't know you can do it, the odds are, you won't.

As far as 'why' you can do shit like that, that's another discussion entirely, and it involves a shit load of religious and theological jargon. But, the old phrase 'we are all created in god's image' is a rather important phrase indeed.

Posted: **Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:47 pm**

god smokz r33fer cuz hes a po-thead

Posted: **Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:24 pm**

Fluffyumpkins wrote:Drugs ruined electronic music as a genre to be taken seriously. House, 2-step, DnB, Electro, Trance, Breaks, ect. have all been lumped with happy-crapcore and pill munchers only enjoy EDM for the ease of wasting away on drugs. Honestly I'd like to go to a 'party' without Kandi-Kids and their glowsticks and XS rainbow bright shirts. I really wish there were more respectable, or at least tolerable, clubs that played this kind of stuff. Other countries just don't look at 'rave music' the same way we do.

LOL that stuff was already bad to begin with, it's always sounded the same, and don't expect the rave scene to start booming again.

Why do people keep talking about lucid dreaming as an altered state of consciousness when in fact you're unconscious?...

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