The pledge

Queefer · Post by **Queefer** » Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:31 pm

you always gonna have a so-called injustice to whine about, even if this was a non-issue. try living in another country. ANY other country. if your biggest complaint is saying a two minute whatever in school, count yourself lucky. There are countries with a mandatory death penalty on the first offence for a DUI. think about that for a minute. And you don't have to mean what you say..... this is America. most people don't mean what they say anyways. life is a compromise, you take some, you give some, and two minutes out of school ain't so bad. at least you are not being made to work algebraic functions.

Potter · Post by **Potter** » Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:05 pm

Umm, Shammers, you are basiclly saying take anything even if you don't agree with it. That is the worst moral ive ever heard. So you shouldent stand up for what you believe in? Im saying I want to have a fucking choice, Im not trying to "go agianst the man" , Im trying to not stand and up and say stuff I dont mean nor believe in. What your saying just makes you a fuxking pushover, your basicly going through life drifting through doing whatever is told just to "get through it". Living life is about doing what you think is right and not let other people tell you how to live. Its incredibly stupid to just "go with the flow" and get it over with. Thats just stupid.

Original Sin · Post by **Original Sin** » Thu Oct 06, 2005 7:07 pm

What shammers said works to a point, but just taking whatever and going on with your life isn't always the best idea. I don't concider the pledge a big issue myself, and I've never sung the star stangled banner either...mainly because I don't like to sing. I don't agree with the 'under god,' and I don't think saying the pledge is really so damn important anyway, but I generally don't bitch about it, because no one has tried to force me to say it since elementry school.
There are some things in life that you can just sit back and take, and there are other things you can't. The country is moving in a very conservative, overly patriotic direction, and personally, I find it quite frightening. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that patriotism, or nationalism more accurately, can lead to some very big problems if not kept in check. Secondly, for the 'under god' if there are that many people who disagree with it, then it shouldn't be in there anyway. Just because the christian majority thinks it's cool, doesn't mean we should all just have to grin and bear it, just so they can get their jollies off a pledge. If they're so concerned, and think we should be able to 'just deal with it,' why aren't we allowed to tell them to take it out?

Mosh_Mosh_Revolution · Thu Oct 06, 2005 7:44 pm

Potter wrote:Umm, Shammers, you are basiclly saying take anything even if you don't agree with it. That is the worst moral ive ever heard. So you shouldent stand up for what you believe in? Im saying I want to have a fucking choice, Im not trying to "go agianst the man" , Im trying to not stand and up and say stuff I dont mean nor believe in. What your saying just makes you a fuxking pushover, your basicly going through life drifting through doing whatever is told just to "get through it". Living life is about doing what you think is right and not let other people tell you how to live. Its incredibly stupid to just "go with the flow" and get it over with. Thats just stupid.

It's a fabulous thing to still have an innocent view on life and a belief that you can make a change in the things around you if you stand up against what you see as injustice.

But then you grow up and realize that once voice is just that...a single voice.

It makes apathy very easy. Shammers isn't saying that he doens't believe in anything. I'm sure that there's things that you could get him fired up about. Everyone has a passion for something different. It takes different strokes to move the world, after all.

Going with the flow isn't a stupid thing. Neither is standing up for what you believe in. There's a comfortable balance between absolute apathy and radical that sane people hang in. n_n

Potter · Post by **Potter** » Thu Oct 06, 2005 7:51 pm

Wow, I am quite aware that Im not goign to make a difference nor ever aimed too, I just dont want to pledge my allegience to this country or its god. And yes, Just "going with the flow" your whole life is a pretty bad idea and doesent really make you an individual. I look at people like that daily and just feel sorry for the fact that they wil never make any difference at all nor be remembered.

Original Sin · Post by **Original Sin** » Thu Oct 06, 2005 8:31 pm

Everyone has something they're willing to stand up for, something they're passionate about. I don't know many people who live in complete apathy...yet at the same time, I've met far too many people who stand up for far too many things. Choose your battles, and fight them wisely...don't protest for the sake of protesting, or because it's 'cool,' or you like Green Day.
People can make a difference, if not on a national level, you can at least change the way things work around you. If you don't wanna say the pledge, then don't. Now, this doesn't mean you should aim to topple the federal government...but you CAN tell your teacher that you're not going to do it. If you are repremanded for it, you can seek legal action against the school itself. This will also prevent them (hopefully) from making the same mistake again, thus, you have made a change. Small, but still significiant. Each school has at least one kid who doesn't want to say the pledge, and if each one of them went through with this, that's a large scale change, something the government will notice.
I do believe, however, that people who have different views and beliefs in public school are necessary, and I love to see them voice their opinions there. Most schools try to choke kids on the maintstream and the 'proper' ways to do things, to the point that many of them never even realize that there are other ways of life, and that they aren't all evil, like they're often led to believe. The more kids are exposed to people with different beliefs, the more accepting and understanding they will be later in life, and hopefully, it'll keep us from being in the same situation we are now....having biggots for national leaders, who try to oppose their own religious and moral agenda on everyone.

Queefer · Post by **Queefer** » Thu Oct 06, 2005 11:01 pm

Good points all, and i don't wanna live in the usa either. i'd prefer south korea or ireland. that said, as long as i live here i have to follow the rules here. of course, the rule in america is if you don't like something, complain about it and sue people till you get your way. is this ok? no. should people fight about two words in a pledge we barely use outside of grade school? no. don't get me wrong, however. there is no point in having an opinion and not expressing it. the fact is: as someone pointed out, if there is one kid in every school who don't wanna say under God, then there are a lot more who either want to or don't care. last i checked, in a democracy, the majority rules, or is at least supposed to. in twenty years if things continue, america will be a capitalist/nationalist society/government, but until that happens, we must follow the rules of a democracy.

btw, whomever said that under God was added in the 50's was mistaken. it has always been in the pledge.

classic candy · Post by **classic candy** » Thu Oct 06, 2005 11:27 pm

Mosh_Mosh_Revolution wrote:
Potter wrote:Umm, Shammers, you are basiclly saying take anything even if you don't agree with it. That is the worst moral ive ever heard. So you shouldent stand up for what you believe in? Im saying I want to have a fucking choice, Im not trying to "go agianst the man" , Im trying to not stand and up and say stuff I dont mean nor believe in. What your saying just makes you a fuxking pushover, your basicly going through life drifting through doing whatever is told just to "get through it". Living life is about doing what you think is right and not let other people tell you how to live. Its incredibly stupid to just "go with the flow" and get it over with. Thats just stupid.
It's a fabulous thing to still have an innocent view on life and a belief that you can make a change in the things around you if you stand up against what you see as injustice.

But then you grow up and realize that once voice is just that...a single voice.

It makes apathy very easy. Shammers isn't saying that he doens't believe in anything. I'm sure that there's things that you could get him fired up about. Everyone has a passion for something different. It takes different strokes to move the world, after all.

Going with the flow isn't a stupid thing. Neither is standing up for what you believe in. There's a comfortable balance between absolute apathy and radical that sane people hang in. n_n

Quote tree + 1

Erin, I have to say that I disagree with you here. One voice may be a single voice, but one voice can reach thousands of other people. Think about it, in the past 19 years, how many thousands of people have you met? And each one of those thousands of people have met thousands of other people. If you don't use your voice, it'll never be heard. If you stand up for what you believe in, and keep your convictions strong, other people will hear you. And other people who believe what you believe will stand with you, and your voice becomes many voices. In a world of 6.5 billion people, it's impossible that nobody shares your beliefs. I'm not saying it's instant. It's not. It may take years and years, but people will hear you. People will hear you, and if you can make some small difference in someone's life, then it's worth it. Maybe it's not changing the world, but, it's definitely worth something.

sam · Post by **sam** » Thu Oct 06, 2005 11:48 pm

yeah, other countries have their own issues but that's retarded to write off an argument just because there's other problems in the world.

our country is based off the freedom of choice, religion, speach..everything. To force the idea of religion into our fucking motto for our country is a disgrace as you have the CHOICE to practice religion.

Queefer · Post by **Queefer** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 12:04 am

sam wrote:yeah, other countries have their own issues but that's retarded to write off an argument just because there's other problems in the world.

our country is based off the freedom of choice, religion, speach..everything. To force the idea of religion into our fucking motto for our country is a disgrace as you have the CHOICE to practice religion.

others problems ARE relevant, because things must be compared for an intelligent idea to be reached.

also,its not really a motto, its a pledge, and you have the FREEDOM to not say it.

btw, insults and cursing are a major fallacy in debate/argument, if you actually want others to listen to your point of view. (that is others who don't already see it your way)

sam · Post by **sam** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 12:27 am

since when did this board thrive on intelligence?

sorry bud, but changing the topic does not make you smarter. i acknowledge that other places have issues but guess what? that's other places. I'm in the United States. As a citizen of the United States I should care about the diplomacy and how my children are raised in the United States.

before you go off ranting about hungry kids in Etheopia, this argument is about the pledge of alligence in the United States.

You know in a debate where you're to express intelligence it's usually frowned upon to change a topic. Shows a lack of intelligence.

...oh yeah; fuck off.

Queefer · Post by **Queefer** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:42 am

sam wrote:since when did this board thrive on intelligence?

sorry bud, but changing the topic does not make you smarter. i acknowledge that other places have issues but guess what? that's other places. I'm in the United States. As a citizen of the United States I should care about the diplomacy and how my children are raised in the United States.

before you go off ranting about hungry kids in Etheopia, this argument is about the pledge of alligence in the United States.

You know in a debate where you're to express intelligence it's usually frowned upon to change a topic. Shows a lack of intelligence.

...oh yeah; fuck off.

THIS board does not thrive on intellect, however this debate does.

I did not change the topic

You don't have kids

you just proved your intelligence/ devotion to staying on topic.

Original Sin · Post by **Original Sin** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 7:23 am

Majority is supposed to rule in a democracy, but we're not a democracy. We're a republic. Furthermore, certain aspects of the constitution forbid and/or limit the effects of certain decisions, mandates, laws and goings on in general in this country. Separation of church and state is a HUGE deal, and one that MUST be upheld. Religious control of a government and persecution of people who are different are both very, very bad things for a country, and though the 'under god' itself is small and relatively insignificant, if we let the powers that be (now right wing christians) get away with it, there will be more. I'm not so much protesting the 'under god' itself, I'm against the nature of what it stands for in a political and social sense. I don't give a damn about the pledge, I haven't said it years. What I care about is are the arrogant religious powers in this country that continue to force their own spiritual agenda onto the entire country with no consideration for any other religous, social or cultural group.
In some countries, this isn't an issue. However, America specifically stands for freedom, something most of the world does not, and we have the most diverse group of citizens in what is probably the entire history of the human race. This is not a small issue, and it's something that must be dealt with quickly, before it grows out of control, something it's already starting to do.

sam · Post by **sam** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:27 am

Queefer wrote:THIS board does not thrive on intellect, however this debate does.

I did not change the topic

You don't have kids

you just proved your intelligence/ devotion to staying on topic.

I didn't know specific threads required a serious level of intelligence. I may not have kids now but that doesn't mean I should ignore current affairs dealing with schools, I will have kids and they will be in these schools. I fail to see how looking out for the future shows a loss of intelligence.

malictus · Post by **malictus** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 9:37 am

Queefer wrote:btw, whomever said that under God was added in the 50's was mistaken. it has always been in the pledge.

Wrong: see
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/LAW/06/26/ ... llegiance/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,56322,00.html
etc.

classic candy wrote:Erin, I have to say that I disagree with you here. One voice may be a single voice, but one voice can reach thousands of other people. Think about it, in the past 19 years, how many thousands of people have you met? And each one of those thousands of people have met thousands of other people. If you don't use your voice, it'll never be heard. If you stand up for what you believe in, and keep your convictions strong, other people will hear you. And other people who believe what you believe will stand with you, and your voice becomes many voices. In a world of 6.5 billion people, it's impossible that nobody shares your beliefs. I'm not saying it's instant. It's not. It may take years and years, but people will hear you. People will hear you, and if you can make some small difference in someone's life, then it's worth it. Maybe it's not changing the world, but, it's definitely worth something.

YES!!!